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Thread: Coup attempt in Turkey.

  1. #801

    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann View Post
    I’ve got a question for the Turks in this forum actually living in Turkey about this Gülen movement. Afaik the military in Turkey always has been a strong pillar of Kemalism and secularity. How reasonable is it, that the Military suddenly shall be a stronghold of the so called Gülen parallel state structure, as Erdogan and his AKP proclaim? Gülen and AKP are both islamist by the way, the military was not afaik, but the last remaining secular instiution of Turkey.

    I know, that Erdogan before the coup already gained control of parts of the military by putting loyal men in charge. So the military was already undermined by AKP, which explains why not all military branches joined the coup.
    I already talked to befriended liberal Turks in Germany, who all said, that the military is still secular and kemalistic and has got nothing to do with this islamist Gülen group whatsoever. This story is just made up, they said.
    At least there are a lot of things very suspicious about this failed coup. F.e. that so few military was seen on the streets, that they didn’t take really strategic crucial positions, but instead send a handful of soldiers to places where they were easily overwhelmed by the angered masses, that they didn’t shut down media stations and didn’t make a real effort to capture Erdogan and leading AKP party members first and foremost.
    Also Erdogan seemed to be very well prepared, the super quick nationwide sms to all Turkish cell phone owners to occupy the streets and resist the military, he was able to land in Istanbul, although putschist airforce controlled the air space over Istanbul, and he was greeted by his mobilized supporters, instead of military police waiting for him there to arrest him eventually and least but not last the quick mass imprisonment of approximately around 6000 people (lists of names must have been made a long time ago) the very next day!

    At least cui bono? Clearly Erdogan profits enormously of this failed coup. Astonishing quickly he uses the failed “coup”, which was totally dilettante at least, for his own means by pushing any kind of resistance in every state institution out of office. What do all those judges, prosecutors and officials have to do with the putschist military? The real coup just began, methinks… Erdogan uses this failed coup as pretence for the complete transformation of Turkey and to usurp all power by placing loyal AKP members into every position to be “cleansed”.
    I also feel very sorry for the many young putschist soldiers, often draftees, who just followed orders and who have been beaten, humiliated, some even lynched brutally by AKP-hooligans after surrender. I haven’t seen any coverage, yet, of putschist soldiers firing into the angry mob! I also haven’t seen how putschist tanks overran people. But I have seen a lot of disturbing images and vids of mob violence against surrendered soldiers, while the police forces didn’t stop the angry mob at all. Now I have seen footage of putschist soldiers bound naked and humilated, photos of putschist soldiers after police interrogation with beaten up faces and covered in blood or another video where an Erdogan police officer (who rather looks like a rabid pittbull) beats up a Putschist general, while screaming like a madman.

    Since Erdogan now even wants to implement the death penalty again, Europe mustn’t look aside, while thousands of people in Turkey, who surely won’t get a fair trial, might get mass executed. In my eyes Europe must take a tough stance here and insist on fair trials and that the mistreatment (which is even an understatement) of surrendered soldiers by AKP hooligans and brutish police forces must be punished as well.
    It didn't happen over night. AKP first took Gülen movement from being an official security risk to Turkish government. They worked with them to install their own men in the police forces, judiciary, education and military. Army was much more Kemalist before the Ergenekon and Balyoz coup plots which were found out to be fake plans planted by Gülen movement people. A lot of the Kemalist people were kicked out of the army under false charges. Today, the remaining Kemalist officer didn't make a move. The army is basically divided between three parties; Kemalist, pro-AKP, and Gülen movement. I wager the pro-AKP part is the largest one. Gülen movement part is probably not huge, but not small either. By the way, a lot of Gülen movement people might very well be conservative officers that don't like AKP. They could see Gülen movement as an ally.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; July 19, 2016 at 01:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Is there no chance of a Kemalist revival in Turkey at this point?
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  3. #803
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    The old school Kemalism has changed quiet a bit. Newer generations are a different breed.
    Kemalist thus have divided among themselves into different sub-categories the way I see it. Some more right-wing and nationalist(more like the old school), some more social democrat and pro-European.

    As for whether they can take over state institutions....I'd like to see what will happen once AKP gets rid of all the well-qualified Gülenists. AKP doesn't have that many well-qualified people as far as I know. They'll either ruin this state further with corruption and nepotism or they will have to open up to other groups.
    But as much as they see Gülenists as terrorists to be kicked out, they also see HDP supporters(middle-class HDP supporters are generally well qualified people) as terrorists and will kick anyone "who has sympathy for PKK" out.
    So I am curious who will run the state..Kemalists might increase in numbers again.

    It is worth keeping in mind that mobbing is at extreme levels and it puts a lot of psychological pressure to work in akp dominated institutions. Speaking from experience here. Many people would give up.
    Last edited by Iskar; July 19, 2016 at 04:58 PM. Reason: consecutive posts merged
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  4. #804
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Obama speaks with Turkish leader, offers help after failed coup

    Yeah, lets find out what really happened!
    Or maybe not...

  5. #805
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    The old school Kemalism has changed quiet a bit. Newer generations are a different breed.
    Kemalist thus have divided among themselves into different sub-categories the way I see it. Some more right-wing and nationalist(more like the old school), some more social democrat and pro-European.

    As for whether they can take over state institutions....I'd like to see what will happen once AKP gets rid of all the well-qualified Gülenists. AKP doesn't have that many well-qualified people as far as I know. They'll either ruin this state further with corruption and nepotism or they will have to open up to other groups.
    But as much as they see Gülenists as terrorists to be kicked out, they also see HDP supporters(middle-class HDP supporters are generally well qualified people) as terrorists and will kick anyone "who has sympathy for PKK" out.
    So I am curious who will run the state..Kemalists might increase in numbers again.
    Americans have a(not so)secret plan to create Kurdish states in Northern Iraq and Syria. From there the rebels of PKK and YPG can stage attacks relatively easily and with good American weapons taken by the peshmerga. If you are a Turk its very hard to defend western policies that want to create Kurdish states and keep Turkey hostage.

  6. #806

    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post

    It may come as a surprise but life is often less epic than movies. Leaders and generals make huge mistake all the time. Intelligence is often lacking.
    Boring maybe but true.
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  7. #807
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann View Post
    I also feel very sorry for the many young putschist soldiers, often draftees, who just followed orders and who have been beaten, humiliated, some even lynched brutally by AKP-hooligans after surrender. I haven’t seen any coverage, yet, of putschist soldiers firing into the angry mob! I also haven’t seen how putschist tanks overran people. But I have seen a lot of disturbing images and vids of mob violence against surrendered soldiers, while the police forces didn’t stop the angry mob at all. Now I have seen footage of putschist soldiers bound naked and humilated, photos of putschist soldiers after police interrogation with beaten up faces and covered in blood or another video where an Erdogan police officer (who rather looks like a rabid pittbull) beats up a Putschist general, while screaming like a madman.
    I'm not going to link it for obvious reasons, but at the time of the coup there was a video uploaded which showed a tank running over and killing two civilians. Whether intentional or not, it's hardly the kind of thing to endear the soldiers to the people. Although I do get your point. Most of these guys were just scared conscripts who probably had no idea what was happening.

  8. #808

    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    .
    And if anybody is unhappy with death penalty; read this, it clearly says that if you kill civilians or order civilians to be killed, you will get death penalty.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Crimes_Act_of_1996
    Could you quote the part where "it clearly says that if you kill civilians or order civilians to be killed, you will get death penalty"?
    Also, even if it did say that, since when is Turkey subject to US law?

  9. #809

    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Obama speaks with Turkish leader, offers help after failed coup

    Yeah, lets find out what really happened!
    Or maybe not...
    This only proves beyond doubt that the US had nothing to do with it. Obama is so damned deluded into thinking he can resolve everything by phone calls with "urging" and "strong feeling" without anything to back up his position that he can dissuade Erdogan's scheme to lay the blame entirely on the Gulens. Erdogan is but one step away from absolute power with only them left in his way and he's not going to change his mind on this. I bet the conversation went mostly with Erdogan making a barrage of bizarre demands and Obama just stalling him.

    The end result of all this will inevitably be Turkish and NATO relations becoming ice cold and another eastern nation falls to fascism on Europe's doorstep. And a nation with a larger armed forces than most other NATO members at that. After the foreign policy series of disasters that has been the Obama administration, I don't have much faith in either a Clinton nor Trump transition either. Things are only getting worse.
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  10. #810
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Piett View Post
    This only proves beyond doubt that the US had nothing to do with it. Obama is so damned deluded into thinking he can resolve everything by phone calls with "urging" and "strong feeling" without anything to back up his position that he can dissuade Erdogan's scheme to lay the blame entirely on the Gulens. Erdogan is but one step away from absolute power with only them left in his way and he's not going to change his mind on this. I bet the conversation went mostly with Erdogan making a barrage of bizarre demands and Obama just stalling him.

    The end result of all this will inevitably be Turkish and NATO relations becoming ice cold and another eastern nation falls to fascism on Europe's doorstep. And a nation with a larger armed forces than most other NATO members at that. After the foreign policy series of disasters that has been the Obama administration, I don't have much faith in either a Clinton nor Trump transition either. Things are only getting worse.
    Hmm, do you think CIA informed Obama about the coup they organized? I don't think so. If the coup was successful and Turkey became a military junta, today USA was announcing how Turkish heroic army saved "democracy" from Erdoğan. All of that while thousands of Turkish democrats suffering at the military prisons. (just like Egypt) Of course that would be a great victory for the West. They would have millions of Turkish soldiers that they can sacrify to protect Western interests. Instead, Turkish democracy won where Egypt failed.

    And do not believe for one moment that Turkish and NATO relations will become ice cold. We need NATO and they need us. Being a democracy is never a condition for being a Nato member.

    Do you know the funniest thing of all? EU just made an announcement that Turkey can not join EU if we reinstate death penalty EU officials still think that they can use EU membership carrot to force Turkey. These people are delusionals, they are totally cut from the reality.

  11. #811

    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Now are they delusional?
    Please tell us more how great Turkey is

  12. #812
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Wikileaks started to publish thousands of emails of AKP party (starting) about the recent coup.
    But as this article points out Turksih people can not access wikileaks page.
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    Hmm, do you think CIA informed Obama about the coup they organized? I don't think so. If the coup was successful and Turkey became a military junta, today USA was announcing how Turkish heroic army saved "democracy" from Erdoğan. All of that while thousands of Turkish democrats suffering at the military prisons. (just like Egypt) Of course that would be a great victory for the West. They would have millions of Turkish soldiers that they can sacrify to protect Western interests. Instead, Turkish democracy won where Egypt failed.

    And do not believe for one moment that Turkish and NATO relations will become ice cold. We need NATO and they need us. Being a democracy is never a condition for being a Nato member.

    Do you know the funniest thing of all? EU just made an announcement that Turkey can not join EU if we reinstate death penalty EU officials still think that they can use EU membership carrot to force Turkey. These people are delusionals, they are totally cut from the reality.
    Western interests are the best interests for everybody at this current point in time. Just pointing that out. Forget nationalism, look at the world and you'll see that the only places where all people are genuinely attempted to be given equality, democracy etc. are in the Western countries. And then there's Turkey where Erdogan idolizes Hitler and wants to bring back his methods of government. There is no comparison to be had between the two.
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  14. #814
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Army chief's aide-de-camp confesses to working for Gulen

    http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/army-...r-gulen-147408

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  15. #815

    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizam View Post
    Army chief's aide-de-camp confesses to working for Gulen


    http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/army-...r-gulen-147408


    Looks like we are getting lessons from Russian intelligence lol

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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Tureuki i own you a rep for the pos of yours with the comic!
    Now in internet "Hurriet" reveals??? that MIT knew about the coup a while ago!
    Damn i heard miau and I though it was a dog learning new languages!
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Wikileaks started to publish thousands of emails of AKP party (starting) about the recent coup.
    But as this article points out Turksih people can not access wikileaks page.
    Funny that i can reach wikileaks. Last time i checked, i was in Turkey lol.

    You know, somehow that Wikileaks Turkiye account is taken from Pennsylvania, USA, just where FETO leader lives! And wonder what do you have inside those documents? Marriage requests and recipe of Turkish foods! That must be a joke...


  18. #818
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    Hmm, do you think CIA informed Obama about the coup they organized? I don't think so. If the coup was successful and Turkey became a military junta, today USA was announcing how Turkish heroic army saved "democracy" from Erdoğan. All of that while thousands of Turkish democrats suffering at the military prisons. (just like Egypt) Of course that would be a great victory for the West. They would have millions of Turkish soldiers that they can sacrify to protect Western interests.
    I thought you said the fact that Obama waited to support the government implicated the US was behind it. Aren't you contradicting yourself?
    Yeah, instead of the military winning and assuming thousands of democrats are in jail, you have Erdogan winning with thousands of judges, teachers, and government officials losing their jobs and or being arrested. That's much better
    Instead, Erdogan won
    FTFY



  19. #819
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Update;

    A roughly chronological (top=new) running list of Turkish institutional casualties:


    300 Energy Ministry employees dismissed
    184 Customs Ministry employees dismissed
    8 top-level parliamentary executives removed
    All Turks require extra documentation to travel outside country
    86 Banking Regulation and Supervision Agency (BDDK) employees dismissed
    51 Borsa Istanbul (national stock exchange) employees dismissed
    245 Sports Ministry personnel suspended
    All Turkish academics banned from traveling abroad
    140 members of the Supreme Court and 48 members of the Council of State (the highest court) got arrest warrants 4 days ago, no info on releases etc.
    15,200 Ministry of Education personnel fired
    24 news/media outlets broadcast licenses withdrawn
    492 state religious personnel (Diyanet) removed
    21,000 private teachers licenses revoked
    393 personnel in Ministry of Family and Social Policy dismissed
    257 personnel at PM's office dismissed & ID's seized
    Demand for all 1,577 University Deans resignation
    30 governors of 99 fired
    9000 in Interior Ministry fired
    180 intelligence officials (MIT, Turkey's national intelligence agency) suspended
    2,745 judges dismissed
    3,000,000 civil servants banned from going on holiday
    Talks of reinstating the death penalty
    1,500 Finance Ministry officials suspended
    103 generals/admirals detained for questioning
    ?? soldiers fired/imprisoned

    Academics are also now banned from leaving the country.


  20. #820
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    Default Re: Coup attempt in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    Update;

    A roughly chronological (top=new) running list of Turkish institutional casualties:


    300 Energy Ministry employees dismissed
    184 Customs Ministry employees dismissed
    8 top-level parliamentary executives removed
    All Turks require extra documentation to travel outside country
    86 Banking Regulation and Supervision Agency (BDDK) employees dismissed
    51 Borsa Istanbul (national stock exchange) employees dismissed
    245 Sports Ministry personnel suspended
    All Turkish academics banned from traveling abroad
    140 members of the Supreme Court and 48 members of the Council of State (the highest court) got arrest warrants 4 days ago, no info on releases etc.
    15,200 Ministry of Education personnel fired
    24 news/media outlets broadcast licenses withdrawn
    492 state religious personnel (Diyanet) removed
    21,000 private teachers licenses revoked
    393 personnel in Ministry of Family and Social Policy dismissed
    257 personnel at PM's office dismissed & ID's seized
    Demand for all 1,577 University Deans resignation
    30 governors of 99 fired
    9000 in Interior Ministry fired
    180 intelligence officials (MIT, Turkey's national intelligence agency) suspended
    2,745 judges dismissed
    3,000,000 civil servants banned from going on holiday
    Talks of reinstating the death penalty
    1,500 Finance Ministry officials suspended
    103 generals/admirals detained for questioning
    ?? soldiers fired/imprisoned

    Academics are also now banned from leaving the country.

    But democracy won so it's ok :^)



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