Hello and a great Congrats to the team for this GREAT mod! I want to ask that should the teppo be stronger in shooting because they seem to be somewhat weak. How we could increase their killing rate?
At the end of this recent post, I put in a link discussing the history of the teppo units.
The teppo makes an appearance too early in the mod, and based upon the unit, and versus the historical application. That said, the skeleton which governs the speed of the animation is firing too fast. The very best marksmen could only shoot four rounds a minute. The teppo (iron cannon) had been used earlier, but wasn't as effective at killing, had a poorer range, but mostly scary. There wasn't uniformity in the rounds or the barrel sizes, or maybe even how much powder to load it with. But in the crucible of war, and with so much war, then from the moment it was initially used by a clan, then those clans who lost against the new arqubuisers from the Portuguese, and those that had been reverse engineered then first weren't as good, but improved with time.
There's a great scene in Karemusha in which a very talented sharpshooter explains how he'd place a plumb bob on a string and attached to his rifle. Then once he aimed, he marked that spot on the ground where the plumb bob hovered. And so, he could fire a test shot once, and then if the round was where he intended it, then could consistently place a round within that window, but based upon nerves of steel to be consistent, ensuring the same amount of powder, the rounds being of the same caliber, and so on.
It was a fearsome weapon and caused the wavering effect in the samurai/ashigaru. So that is what you're aiming for, not outright killing. Firing off two volleys often will break wavering units. In fact, if you speed up the attack, the cluster of fleeing soldiers in NOT in formation, but looks like a swarm of angry bees morphing around in a confused mass. You take advantage of that.
A yumi samurai could fire off many more arrows in the same time period and with far greater accuracy and precision. Those are the weapons of mass destruction for the Sengoku period. However the yumi cavalry arrows are too strong and the range seems inaccurate. Drawing a yumi, which is far lengthier than a standard Western bow, I doubt that cavalry archers could fire as accurately as those on foot, nor as far in the brief time whilst shooting on horseback. Yabusame was the art of shooting on horseback and not very many could do it with a high degree of accuracy versus say the mongols who had the very best cavalry archers in history.
And those who attempted a teppo preloaded and shot while on horseback, then could only fire once, and often missed, as the aim couldn't be steadied very well. When shooting a yumi while on a horse, the gallop of the horse lends itself to some consistentcy in the the range of y axis movement, but the terrain elevation is also changing by degrees and altering aim. So to try to do that in one shot, then would likely miss, and it would take a terrific marksman to reload in such a dynamic position.
The teppo should appear later, and in tiny numbers, and not as mercs (unless special), and in lesser strength, and alter by degrees over time. Not stronger in my opinion.
At the same time period, some curaisses were sold to the daimyo, and they were adapted and replicated by some talented blacksmiths. Examples of which can be seen here and proving that some samurai survived the encounter and numerous volleys.
And then "proofing" i.e. tameshi gusoku of the armor was done to ensure that a round wouldn't penetrate and kill the wearer.
That can be reflected in adaptation in units over time, probably in the hatamoto horo units and in some hatamoto cavalry units.
Those big hand cannon could mess up your whole day. They are used in the mod to blow out a door during siege. In history some of them shot down upon the hapless attackers.
Rifles, which are later, have "rifling" inside the barrel, a slow corkscrew pattern, and this spins a bullet to keep it centered as it travels down the barrel and produces a more consistent precision.
Another scene from Kagemusha, but overselling the effectiveness of the teppo.
Ran makes the same error by rapid fire teppos that are nothing like history.
This trailer shows the teppo as the skirmishers finish off the castle siege while the yumi are likewise able to penetrate the windows and burn them out. That last part seems about the right firing rate (not the field battle scene, but the final destruction of the former broken lord scene).
Last edited by RubiconDecision; July 06, 2016 at 11:35 PM.
Thanks for the deep information provided! In my Takeda campaign I have converted on city to the Catholic faith and starting producing Teppo. Used properly with strong Yari Ashigaru and Takeda cavalry support they are a true killing machine!
Put your archers behind them. Pepper the AI on approach. When the AI gets close enough, the Teppos will fire. When they get even closer, they're pretty good about retreating on their own in waves and seeking safety.
I use lines of spearmen, often yari samurai though that's expensive versus ashigaru. Frankly, I overstrengthen and overspend just to see lots of units in battle when you could do it on a fraction of the cost.
Anyway, the AI is wayyy too overconfident and will overuse ashigaru. Which means the AI "thinks" it is stronger. However their morale is crap. So when you do this, you can make short work of their approaching archers.
The AI will often hide some Teppo to lay down suppressing fire when you trounch the AI by a banzai charge. Watch out for that, and watch for ambushes, or you will walk right into the same trap that the AI falls for.
The AI is so limited in RTW. I wish it could be added to or modded as it is in MTW2. Some folks have written excellent AI. Taiji for example wrote a terrific AI that could kick yer ass.
Since ranged weapons are so critical and since the Teppo is terrifying (or at least it was back then), then be very careful about trying to get to an elevated position. The AI is dumb and you can displace it, but on the approach if attacking, you can walk into the line of fire.
You have the advantage of laying down crossfire. The AI doesn't take advantage that way. Lay down your ranged attack such that there are fields of overlapping shooting from many angles. It breaks the AI into that angry bee swarm and since out of formation, they have no strength. They're running for their lives, trying to avoid musket balls and arrows from landing, but they're exhausting themselves while most of your men are resting and waiting.
The hard part is waiting. Think: back then volleys are shot and rows are firing with nerves of steel, and then launching the counterattack. But meanwhile some of your samurai are dying and they're expensive. And putting all weak guys up front means less expensive attrition, but more liable to break from the mental strain.
Japanese cavalry were crap back then. We're used to far better cavalry and better horses and better armor and better lance attacks versus light horses, light armor, the yari (which is no couched lance) and so they have to be used judiciously or you will waste too many of them and drive your military retraining costs too high. There's no charge right into the fray without a severe cost. Which is why the square pattern is ideal to hit and glance away, hit and glance away, with coordinated cavalry and only when the enemy is wavering, not resolute to take the charge.
My biggest error is sending in the yari cavalry too soon, and trying to handle some unit that hasn't retreated but hanging on. Often these are Teppo in ambush. If you foolishly do this, and some Buddhist monk infantry are hanging around, then you can get your ass handed to you, even make a ludicrous error and lose your general, for the Buddhist monk morale level is VERY HIGH. Almost unshakeable. The Teppos can hammer them. You got to soften them up.
Yari cavalry are flankers. I send them in to break the enemy when the banzai charge is underway, so it's timing when to send them, and hoping they get to their flanking position at the right time. Meanwhile they can come across those teppo and/or buddhists skulking in the tree line (usually). The AI would rather use the Buddhist monks as their heavy infantry but some end up out of position or maybe it's the one good thing that the AI has planned.
Last edited by RubiconDecision; July 12, 2016 at 02:41 AM.
Miles
Should the Teppo be stronger?
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