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Thread: Diplomacy Guide

  1. #41

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Could be. I have to think there is some positive diplomatic effect associated with trade in RTW as well, if only because the AI seems to want it so often. The next inference, though, is even more of an assumption: that trading (as a positive action) with a faction improves your relationship with that faction's allies, and that trading with a faction's enemies hurts your relation with that faction. Not sure at all if that is the case, but these days I play as if it were (would be cool if it were).


    Another thought: I wonder if the "peace with the dead" script has any unforseen ripple effect on diplomacy.

    I'm not sure, but I imagine the script simply resets diplomatic relations between all factions either allied or at war with a faction that is eliminated. So say you're playing as the RK and are allied with Harondor and at war with Harad. Harad eliminates Harondor. You activate the script. Now you're no longer allied with Harondor, and Harad is no longer at war with Harondor. Might this also indirectly impact your relations with Harad? Again, this assumes that the AI factions track your interactions with other AI factions, and "like" actions that help their allies (or hurt their foes) while "disliking" actions that hurt their allies (or help their foes).
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  2. #42

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Concerning "peace with the dead": Interesting speculations, but I cannot imagine any consequences of using the option being worse than the consequences of not using it.

    My experience with the "pay me to attack faction X" proposal, is that it is a very good canary. If you screw up something diplomatically, you can expect that option to stop working the very next turn. So far, using the "peace with the dead" option has not triggered that proposal to become nonviable in the next turn in any of my campaigns that I can recall. Of course, that option does stop working eventually in any campaign, so you will want to try to eliminate coincidence.

    I would advise anybody wanting to help find answers to such questions to start getting in the habit of saving at least every turn, so that when something significant seems to happen in the diplomacy arena, you can go back a few turns and try different things to see if you can isolate what might have influenced the change.

    In my date folder I will change the name of my "save" folder to represent the campaign ("Elves", "Dwarves", etc) and make a new "save" folder when I start a new campaign. This keeps my saves from getting too messy in-game, and ensures I have these old campaigns to go back to when I need to investigate some phenomenon.
    Last edited by Wambat; March 05, 2017 at 05:07 PM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Ah, good to know that the "pay me to attack" thing doesn't change after a faction's eliminated. I don't mean to advocate against the peace-with-the-dead script; more just curious about what ramifications it might have (both positive & negative, perhaps).

    I've stolen your save system from your LPs, so in future I should be able to easily check/test.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  4. #44

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    I think I found (one) place where I got the idea that selling map info to the AI could encourage them to attack. This is from a guide to Gaul in the Scriptorium:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...94#post1004994

    The relevant part:

    "You may be tempted to sell map info to your next door neighbors. Don’t! They will attack you the very next turn, since you have stripped down your defenses to attack the starting rebel cities, and selling map info shows this to them. In general, only sell map info to factions that do not share a border with you."

    This seems to have been written quite some time ago. I guess the theory is that either the AI can "see" your lands without fog-of-war once you sell map info (I don't think this is the case), or that the AI can do the equivalent of "double-clicking" on an enemy city that is concealed by fog-of-war to determine how many units are garrisoned there. Either way, it doesn't seem too convincing; it could simply be coincidence that the AI attacks after a map info deal, since there can be many factors involved in determining when the AI attacks.

    I guess the only way to test would be to see how the game plays when you don't sell map info, and then see how it plays when you do. I've avoided selling my map info for years, so I'm actually in a decent position to test out what happens when I start selling it. But again, I'm not confident it's going to be a big difference.

    (As an aside there's also this bit about trade: "You can sell trade rights to the surrounding factions for about 1000 to Julii and Germania, 2500 to the Carthaginians, 3000 to the Britons, and sometimes 5000 to the Spanish. But, to get this high a figure, you need to have roads, ports, and traders established, because the AI figures the worth of the trade agreement based on trade income, and roads etc make trade possible.")
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    I think I found (one) place where I got the idea that selling map info to the AI could encourage them to attack. This is from a guide to Gaul in the Scriptorium:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...94#post1004994

    The relevant part:

    "You may be tempted to sell map info to your next door neighbors. Don’t! They will attack you the very next turn, since you have stripped down your defenses to attack the starting rebel cities, and selling map info shows this to them. In general, only sell map info to factions that do not share a border with you."

    This seems to have been written quite some time ago. I guess the theory is that either the AI can "see" your lands without fog-of-war once you sell map info (I don't think this is the case), or that the AI can do the equivalent of "double-clicking" on an enemy city that is concealed by fog-of-war to determine how many units are garrisoned there. Either way, it doesn't seem too convincing; it could simply be coincidence that the AI attacks after a map info deal, since there can be many factors involved in determining when the AI attacks.

    I guess the only way to test would be to see how the game plays when you don't sell map info, and then see how it plays when you do. I've avoided selling my map info for years, so I'm actually in a decent position to test out what happens when I start selling it. But again, I'm not confident it's going to be a big difference.

    (As an aside there's also this bit about trade: "You can sell trade rights to the surrounding factions for about 1000 to Julii and Germania, 2500 to the Carthaginians, 3000 to the Britons, and sometimes 5000 to the Spanish. But, to get this high a figure, you need to have roads, ports, and traders established, because the AI figures the worth of the trade agreement based on trade income, and roads etc make trade possible.")
    Have you noted any difference in the propensity for immediate attack since you have been selling map info?


    I believe the article date is after the most recent patch release (1.6), yet the description of how the AI values trade deals recalls to me AI behavior in the earlier patches. This may reflect information in this article being carried over from observations made in earlier patches, without checking that the observations still hold. This is a "copy and paste" from an earlier post, so that is, at least, possible; it is also possible that it has been too long since I have played a vanilla game to judge.


    My theory on the value of the trade proposal is that trade potential provides a base value which is then multiplied by the faction's attitude; plus, I suspect a fraction multiplier may also be in play to reflect cultures more sociologically trade-oriented. How to tease out the truth in this matter boggles my mind, and I would be happy to take and test suggestions.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    I haven't been selling map info much, but I have occasionally given my map info as part of a larger deal (to keep the costs down as part of a ceasefire agreement, e.g.). I don't think it has made much difference, but again my experience with giving away map info is not extensive. My suspicion now is that it won't make much of a difference, although I'm not sure exactly what the AI will 'see' when it gets your map. If you have a poorly-garrisoned border town that the AI now knows about, they might be encouraged to attack, maybe. I certainly haven't observed the AI suddenly getting more aggressive after they get my map info.

    You're probably right about those old guides - they were probably people's best guess at the time, and may not have been updated for the patches; and anyway, it would take a *lot* of testing to verify the claims that are made, and I doubt the testing was done, etc. etc.

    As for trade, yeah, it's a mystery. Sometimes the AI will be happy to pay me for trade; sometimes they'll demand payment instead. My experience with it is rather limited though, since I almost never make trade agreements with factions with whom I can't physically trade.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  7. #47

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    version 1.2.3, release date 09/20/2017


    -Minor grammatical/spelling/format corrections.


    -Minor rephrasing for clarification.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Really helpful! I tried to be more diplomatic in my last Elven campaign. Instead of steamrolling Middle Earth with Glorfindel as usual, the fact that every single attack would be financed by all other WotW factions made it possible to play somewhat more defensive and still get enough money to build up my cities. Elves are great to practice diplomacy. All diplomats get high levels, and all relevant factions can be reached within a few turns.

    Quick summary:
    - Attacks were only against Adunabar and Indepent People
    - all WotW factions were willing to pay 1000 per attack against IP
    - RK, Rohan and, Beornings were willing to pay 1000 per attack against Adunabar
    - Hobbits, Dwarves, and Dale were first willing to pay 1000 per attack against Adunabar, dropped to 500 after I took Sarnford
    - Tharbad, Rhovanion, and Dorwinion were seldom willing to pay more than 500 per attack against Adunabar
    - this worked for almost 40 turns.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Dáin II View Post
    Really helpful! I tried to be more diplomatic in my last Elven campaign. Instead of steamrolling Middle Earth with Glorfindel as usual, the fact that every single attack would be financed by all other WotW factions made it possible to play somewhat more defensive and still get enough money to build up my cities. Elves are great to practice diplomacy. All diplomats get high levels, and all relevant factions can be reached within a few turns.

    Quick summary:
    - Attacks were only against Adunabar and Indepent People
    - all WotW factions were willing to pay 1000 per attack against IP
    - RK, Rohan and, Beornings were willing to pay 1000 per attack against Adunabar
    - Hobbits, Dwarves, and Dale were first willing to pay 1000 per attack against Adunabar, dropped to 500 after I took Sarnford
    - Tharbad, Rhovanion, and Dorwinion were seldom willing to pay more than 500 per attack against Adunabar
    - this worked for almost 40 turns.
    Excellent feedback. I hope more people will follow suit. Getting information like this from sources aside from myself is my best resource for improving the guide.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    You're welcome! In that campaign my next feedback will be about making Tharbad a protectorate. Still lacking the funds to do so though. This time I played with my internal rule to only fight against WotW factions when they attack me. Tharbad did me a big favor trying to take Rivendell. Needed a reason to take Swanfleet and Ost-in-Edil. Using diplomacy with the elves makes the whole rebuild of Ost-in-Edil more worthy as well. In my previous games where I played more aggressive the settlement didn't have any strategic value when built up because it was too far away from any border.

    I also tried your diplomacy tricks in a Khand campaign. WotW factions are too far away at game start to use them for this purpose, so I let the WoD factions pay for it. Less potential obviously, and it didn't work that long either. Far Harad was the least willing to give any donations. Harad paid, until we were at war. Rhun and North Rhun were quite reliable with their payments. Harondor as well. Never tried more than 500 in that game, so no idea where the upper border is.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    I'm very curious to see how a Tharbad protectorate works out - they're mighty stubborn in my experience!
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  12. #52

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Dáin II View Post
    You're welcome! In that campaign my next feedback will be about making Tharbad a protectorate. Still lacking the funds to do so though. This time I played with my internal rule to only fight against WotW factions when they attack me. Tharbad did me a big favor trying to take Rivendell. Needed a reason to take Swanfleet and Ost-in-Edil. Using diplomacy with the elves makes the whole rebuild of Ost-in-Edil more worthy as well. In my previous games where I played more aggressive the settlement didn't have any strategic value when built up because it was too far away from any border.

    I also tried your diplomacy tricks in a Khand campaign. WotW factions are too far away at game start to use them for this purpose, so I let the WoD factions pay for it. Less potential obviously, and it didn't work that long either. Far Harad was the least willing to give any donations. Harad paid, until we were at war. Rhun and North Rhun were quite reliable with their payments. Harondor as well. Never tried more than 500 in that game, so no idea where the upper border is.
    It is interesting to hear you were able to get financial gifts from North Rhun. I have seldom been able to get money out of them, and never consistently. Perhaps they are sensitive to what kind of culture their diplomatic partners are; I think Khand and North Rhun share cultural buildings. Somebody might correct me on that.

    How much an AI faction will give you for attacking another faction is limited by how much that faction "likes" you. Once you have a protectorate you can gift them insane amounts and get most of it back the next turn, resulting in that protectorate liking you very, very much. You can then ask them for thousands for each attack. I use 500 most of the time for non-protectorate factions because it is a safe amount, and asking for too much can cut you off for that turn. You could experiment in each case with saving and reloading to get the maximum support in each instance. I find that is too much work for me, and 500 each time seems to be plenty.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    You're right, Wambat - Khand and North Rhun share the WoD culture buildings (the 'Animal Fights' line). Also in that group are Rhun and Dunland - and Rhovanion, who can choose either WoD or WotW bldgs.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  14. #54

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    I'm very curious to see how a Tharbad protectorate works out - they're mighty stubborn in my experience!
    Confirmed. Really annoying how some multicultural faction puts so much effort into being independent when life under the rule of the Elves is guaranteed to be better (Elves have more life experience -> can teach humans how to live properly). And for my grand strategy in this campaign, where I wanted to keep 4 separate kingdoms with the Elves, I really, really wanted to be their protectors instead of destroying them. Basically the city of Tharbad and its adjacent forts are the only things from them I want. A great strategic location it is, not only by controlling the river crossing, but also to provide my Rivendell/Ost-in-Edhil kingdom with a port. All the other things around I just wanted to give back to them, save maybe Greyholm and Lond Daer, as it looks nice on the map to have them both and the Lond Daer port might block my navy from Tharbad if I don't own it.

    Back to the protectorate issue... I got frustrated. Because of that, I took unusual measures to achieve the ends I wanted. Tharbad would not settle for under a Million. The Elven economy, when playing separate kingdoms of some 5 settlements each, will never give you enough money to achieve that. Different story when you control the rich settlements in the north, but that wasn't the plan in this campaign. I had taken all of Tharbad's territories except Lond Daer, which I besieged and where I blocked the port. Tharbad still had some troops on ships which I couldn't access with my own fleet, cause they were hiding between the ports of Tharbad and Lond Daer. I tried legit measures up to 200000, nothing happened. So, what I did some players might not like, but the frustration was too big. Some people might be familiar with the Iron Bank from Game of Thrones. I decided that the Elves had a great long term relationship with the Total War version of the Iron Bank, also called add_money Bank. So I borrowed the missing 800000 from them, got my protectorate, and paid the amount back rightaway. I gave them about 12 settlements by now. Anything north of Tharbad they can hold easily, but the settlements in Dunland are under constant attack. In the long term, I want Dunland as a second protectorate and separate them completely by controlling the river myself. The only thing is that I had a CTD caused by some Harad rebellion at turn end. I have a saved game about 10-12 turns back, but wasn't in the mood yet to replay those and went with an old Dorwinion saved game instead. So, we'll see when this continues.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Hmm. I think I managed to get Tharbad as a protectorate once, playing as the RK. If so, it definitely wasn't a million mirian, but it would have been probably around 200,000 - and a ton of waiting for them to get tired of being sieged. But I'd have to check my notes; it could be that I was never successful.

    I wonder what it is about certain factions that makes them so stubborn? Maybe their AI 'personality' setting plays a role somehow? Tharbad certainly seems to behave differently than other nearby factions. They seem happy to trade but reluctant to ally, and generally slow to attack. This could be due to the presence of nearby rebel settlements, I suppose.

    Well I don't blame you resorting to the First National Bank of Tilde, though it is frustrating to have to use such methods. Don't forget there is a force-diplomacy script too if you should want to try it that way instead!
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  16. #56

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Yeah I used force diplomacy some years ago in EB I remember. Very handy tool. Might have it still somewhere on my computer. I didn't jump from 200000 to a million for my protectorate. I added some money over multiple turns to check what happens. I think at 700000 I got too pissed and increased to a million.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Forced diplomacy is integrated into this mod. You access it via the advisory buttons. I should probably add a section for that in the Diplomacy Guide.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Version 1.3.0 released.

    - Updated image hosting site to imgur.com.

    - Added sections @09 – Forced Diplomacy and @10 – Old Grievances Forgotten (Faction Elimination Script)

    - Minor grammatical and spelling corrections.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Mods can aid the AI in diplomacy, but it can never fix the fundamental flaws in the Total War AI.
    A shame that CA can't take their time to reform their game's AI.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Diplomacy Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    Mods can aid the AI in diplomacy, but it can never fix the fundamental flaws in the Total War AI.
    A shame that CA can't take their time to reform their game's AI.
    Which bears the question of how hard is to make a decent AI (not a good one, just a decent one) to a game like this. I know that programming AI its a pain in the **, still, considering they could just use the same script (as they do to engines and a crap ton of other things) on other TW titles, a little more effort to program a decent AI its not that hard.

    But, hey, if it it keeps selling, whats the point.... right?

    Bad AI never seemed to be a huge critic on TW community too. Even now, after TW britannia let down and general critics on TW series, the atrocious AI is the least thing you will see people complaining about. You will even see some people saying its not that bad...

    For me its the main reason i never bought any TW title after ROME.

    Paradox is launching Imperator:Rome next year, btw. Just saying...

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