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Thread: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

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    Default The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China



    Unfortunately when it comes to the Yuan and Ming dynasties I can't seem to find very many sources compared to other topics (in English at least, especially for the Yuan Dynasty). If I happen to find more than one chances are they are mostly the same in their content. Though I will always search for more. I have also yet to find any book that goes into the Red Turban Revolt with much detail. As far as battles involving the Red Turbans are concerned the the revolts were so wide spread and had so many various groups and leaders that deconstructing what happened in each area would be a challenge without using Chinese sources (basically there was not just one Red Turban group, it was on a regional basis so different leaders).
    The leaders of the Red Turbans filled the power vacuum that the Mongols left behind along and south of the Yangtze and made their own warlord states and in many cases were killed and replaced by a subordinate. By about 1358 the Red Turbans were more or less gone and former Red Turbans like Chen Youliang established a state called Great Han in the west Yangtze centered around Jiangzhou (though he was a general of Xu Shouhui prior to declaring himself a ruler in his own right), Zhu Yuanzhang, also a Red Turban who came from peasantry but rose through their ranks, made a state called Wu in the centre around Nanjing and in the east Yangtze Zhang Shicheng made a state called Great Zhou around Suzhou.
    Of course there were many other warlords below the Yangtze in various provinces and in areas like Tibet and Yunnan there were Mongol warlords which pledged allegiance to the Yuan dynasty (such as Bolud Temur).


    Zhu Yuanzhang, younger days

    So aside from these other minor warlords the main three along the Yangtze were just going back and forth in a sort of long attrition war from 1358 until 1363 (being along the Yangtze river fleets played a major role in all operations, even sieges). Chen Youliang was also extending his power into Sichuan and Shaanxi while he fought the Ming/Wu in the east, however in 1359 Chen Youliang killed his lord Xu Shouhui and overthrew the Tianmen state establishing the Great Han. Ming Yuzhen who led Xu Shouhui's forces in Shaanxi, Yunnan and Sichuan rebelled and declared his own state there called the Xia. Zhu Yuanzhang meanwhile was fighting the Ming/Wu both against Chen Youliang to his west and Zhang Shicheng to his east. The Yuan dynasty was also experiencing problems as certain Mongol generals had challenged the dynasty therefore the Yuan could not intervene in the south (such as Bolod in Shanxi). In 1360 Chen Youliang tried to invade Ming/Wu and was defeated at Lung-wan (Wade Giles Romanization) and retreated. The major battle occurred in 1363 when Chen Youliang returned and with his massive ships sailed into Lake Poyang and besieged Nanchang, the city held out and eventually the Ming/Wu defeated and killed Youliang in a counter attack.


    Ming Cavalry, the likes of which would have been the main part of armies campaigning in the north and on the steppe

    From then on the Ming/Wu went on the offensive and defeated the Chen's Great Han state in 1365 then defeated Zhang Shicheng's Great Zhou by 1367, both campaigns involved long sieges, notably the siege of Suzhou which caused the collapse of the Great Zhou and the death of Zhang Shicheng. After securing the Yangtze Zhu Yuanzhang sent armies southwards and a massive army to conquer the Yuan capital Dadu (or Beiping as Zhu Yuanzhang named it) in 1368 thus starting the Ming Dynasty and becoming Emperor Hongwu. Immediately after that the Ming armies went west to conquer Shanxi, Shaanxi and Gansu while the armies in the south went on to pacify the provinces below the Yangtze and invade Sichuan and Yunnan. For instance the Ming invaded Sichuan and fought a battle at Ch'u-t'ang Gorge (Wade Giles again) in 1371 in which general Liao Yung Chung defeated a Shu defensive position in a combined land and naval operation.
    Around the same time Xu Da was sent to invade Mongolia proper although Mongolia could not be garrisoned or annexed by the Ming. In the early 1380's Hongwu sent campaigns to conquer Yunnan (under Fu Youde, Lan Yu and Mu Ying) and fight the pro-Yuan warlords led by Basalawarmi and to pacify the independent minded tribes in the area. Other than that Hongwu spent the rest of his reign until his death in 1398 trying to consolidate his rule over China and sending armies on counter insurgency campaigns against Mongol and Jurchen rebels and raiders along the northern frontiers and rebellious tribes along the south.


    Xu Da, most important of Hongwu's generals and one of the two chancellors of state

    As for the Ming armies, the sources state that they typically had a field army of 200,000. For example during the invasion of Yuan held Yunnan province (1381/1382) the Ming allegedly sent 300,000 troops. During the invasion of Manchuria (1387) the Ming led by Feng Sheng, Fu Youde, Lan Yu and prince Zhu Di reinforced their local garrisons by 50,000 men and deployed 150,000 troops for the invasion. In 1388 Lan Yu was sent to invade Mongolia and he brought 150,000 men. I tried to find how many troops Xu Da took with him into Mongolia in 1372 and I could only find one source saying 400,000 and another one saying "a quarter of a million", aside from that apparently Xu Da had a private army of "half a million" at the time of his death in 1385. At least this is according to Ming sources and I'm not sure these numbers add to fighting men, some of them could be camp workers for all I know. The same thing occurred during the civil war between the Yongle Emperor and his nephew the Jianwen Emperor where Yongle fielded over 130,000 troops and in 1400 the Jianwen loyalist general Li Jinglong apparently managed to mobilize 600,000. However the reign of the Yongle Emperor might be a topic for another time.


    Zhu Di the Yongle Emperor, son of Hongwu and took part in Xu Da and Lan Yu's campaigns on the steppe, he would later usurp his nephew and command personally 6 campaigns on the steppe as emperor

    The Ming armies in the reign of the Hongwu Emperor benefited from large amounts of cavalry, veteran soldiers, expert commanders and a capable administration centralized around the person of the Emperor.
    Zhu Yuanzhang and his generals had decades of experience from the time of the Red Turbans to the defeat of his rivals on the Yangtze and the expansion from there in every direction, in places as distant as Manchuria, Tibet, Mongolia and the Shan border states to the south west. The wars also uprooted many civilians which the Ming state provided with land in exchange for grain taxation and military service in what were called agro-military colonies. The Ming certainly had a high grain output and plenty of manpower to wage their campaigns. However any attempts to conquer Outer Mongolia and defeat the Yuan Dynasty once and for all proved fruitless as the steppe was too vast and the nomadic Mongolians could not be controlled which resulted in possible ambushes or massive logistical strain and the costs of such attempts were a waste of the treasury. After the relatively unsuccessful campaign of Xu Da in Mongolia, Hongwu prohibited further large scale invasions of the steppe. Hence forth all campaigns into the steppe were for punitive and security purposes so there was in fact a counter insurgency aspect to it. Politically speaking Hongwu also considered Mongolia as being part of the Great Ming though he had no way to control it or tax it and the Yuan Emperor or Khagan refused to become his vassal. Historically this was the end of Ming attempts to subjugate Mongolia though there would be many other expeditions to stop Mongol raiders and protect the borders of the empire.
    Moreover the Hongwu Emperor purged his administration and military of officials and generals which he deemed to be a threat to his dynasty. Generals such as Lan Yu, Fu Youde and Feng Sheng were killed in this purge thus setting the stage for the Emperor's son Zhu Di to rebel against his nephew, the Jianwen Emperor, years later.


    Zhu Yuanzhang, the Hongwu Emperor in his later days
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; June 24, 2016 at 03:04 PM.

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    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    I always get the strange feeling that ancient and medieval Chinese sources are going through the hands of historians without a footnote about the numbers being exaggerations.

    Whenever anyone states a Persian army of 1 million or Frederick's crusading army of 100 000, he is met with immediate rebuttals on why those numbers are unrealistic.

    The same is never, or at least rarely, seen when discussing East Asian history.


    On to another point, does anyone have more info on the composition of the Ming army during this early period?

    I am, as always when China is the topic, interested in their crossbow usage.

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    The interesting thing is that these figures come directly from state records and other documents. While it is possible for example that the figure of 600,000 troops under Li Jinglong is an exaggeration inserted by the Yongle Emperor to make his victory appear much greater it is not that likely.

    Ming had the grain output, the population and the institutions to raise armies this large. There were also the various rivers and the Grand Canal to supply armies of this size. The inverse is also true. When Xu Da invaded Outer Mongolia he suffered a logistical breakdown and was forced to retreat. Due to the use of agro-military colonies a farmer working state land could pay his taxes and equip himself but also mobilized into service at the behest of the state.

    For more information you could try asking my friend Wu Guo. No promises though
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/member.php?130604-Wu-Guo

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Good article. How many good commanders came out of this era in Chinese military history?

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    My problem is not with the overall amount of the army during a period, but all of them being present at one spot at one time, at one battle, as is often described.

    One of those "state records" also states over 500 000 crossbows situated in a single storage facility during the Han dynasty, which would require the storage facility to be larger than any building ever made by that point.

    So forgive me if I still remain sceptical even with "state records".

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Aside from the Hongwu Emperor himself (Zhu Yuanzhang/Chu Yuanchang)
    the major military commanders were:
    -Chang Yuchun (Yu-Chun)
    -Xu Da (Hsu Ta)
    -Lan Yu
    -Mu Ying
    -Feng Sheng
    -Fu Youde (Yu-te)
    -Li Wenchung
    -Deng Yu (Teng Yu)
    -Li Shanchang
    -Liao Yongzhong (Yung-chung)
    -Dang He (Tang Ho)
    -Wang Pi
    -Zhu Gang (Chu Gang) (Prince of Jin)
    -Zhu Quan (Chu Chuan) (Prince of Ning)
    -Zhu Di (Chu Ti) (Prince of Yan)

    Fortunately with the exception of the princes (sons of Hongwu) many of them had been purged by Hongwu or died of natural causes. When his grandson the Jiajing Emperor was embroiled in a war with his uncle Zhu Di the generals which opposed Zhu Di were the guys who had served under the above. They were defeated and Zhu Di took Nanjing and crowned himself emperor.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    My problem is not with the overall amount of the army during a period, but all of them being present at one spot at one time, at one battle, as is often described.

    One of those "state records" also states over 500 000 crossbows situated in a single storage facility during the Han dynasty, which would require the storage facility to be larger than any building ever made by that point.

    So forgive me if I still remain sceptical even with "state records".
    Not sure about Han Dynasty records. Those might be official histories.
    But the numbers I provided were only for Ming armies on campaign. They had multiple invasion routes so not all of them were present at one battle.
    In a siege that might be a different story. Though even Hideyoshi was able to field 200,000 men in a single campaign and in a single siege.
    This was Sengoku Jidai Japan where output, institutions and population were far inferior compared to even China some two centuries prior.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Not sure about Han Dynasty records.
    The 13 BC equipment record found in 1993, it states 537,707 crossbows, 587,299 suits of lamellar armor, 451,222 polearms and 311,069 swords...all in storage.

    So forgive me if I call absolute fairy dreams on all of it and consequentially also on the provided numbers of anything over 150ish 000 men in a single campaign.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Though even Hideyoshi was able to field 200,000 men in a single campaign and in a single siege.
    Was he though?

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Yes the invasions of Kyushu and Shikoku as well as the campaign against the Hojo (in Kanto Region). Then the subsequent invasion of Korea. The numbers given are pretty consistent. The siege in question was the siege of Odawara. Also keeping in mind that in both cases the populace was displaced. It wasn't that the state just armed random civilians and pressed them into service. Both Japan and China had been damaged by civil war and there were entire sections of the population roving around the countryside. Naturally these made optimal soldiers and were trained to fight. The agro-military colonies provided the state for a way to maintain these numbers by giving all of this land to the soldiers and their families. Provided that they have children they would always have a designated soldier to replace those of the previous generation. The Persian Empire had no such system.

    No idea about that Han dynasty record. Are you sure it says they were stored in the same facility?
    For example at the Battle of Tongguan there is only mention of 50,000 troops in Cao Cao's army.
    None of the figures I mentioned were for numbers during a single battle. They were troop numbers on campaigns over a massive area.

    Grain production in Agro-Military Colonies during the reign of Yongle (1400's):
    Year...........Grain Production in Piculs
    1403..........23,450,799 piculs
    1404..........12,760,300
    1405..........12,467,700
    1406..........19,792,050
    1407..........14,374,270
    1408..........13,718,400
    1409..........12,229,600
    1410..........10,368,550
    1411..........12,660,970
    1412..........11,787,000
    1413..........09,109,110
    1414..........09,738,690
    1415..........10,358,250
    1416..........09,031,970
    1417..........09,282,180
    1418..........08,119,670
    1419..........07,930,920
    1420..........05,158,040
    1421..........05,169,120
    1422..........05,175,345
    1423..........05,171,218

    Population during reign of Yongle 1400's (includes Annam):
    Year.......Households..........Population............Grain Tax in Piculs
    1403......11,415,829..........66,598,337.......... ..31,299,704
    1404......09,685,020..........50,950,470.......... ..31,874,371
    1405......09,689,260..........51,618,500.......... ..31,133,993
    1406......09,687,859..........51,524,656.......... ..30,700,569
    1407......09,822,912..........51,878,572.......... ..29,824,436
    1408......09,443,876..........51,502,077.......... ..30,469,293
    1409......09,637,261..........51,694,769.......... ..31,005,458
    1410......09,655,755..........51,775,255.......... ..30,623,138
    1411......09,533,692..........51,446,834.......... ..30,718,814
    1412......10,992,432..........65,377,633.......... ..34,612,692
    1413......09,689,052..........56,618,209.......... ..32,574,248
    1414......09,687,729..........51,524,436.......... ..32,640,828
    1415......09,687,729..........51,524,436.......... ..32,640,828
    1416......09,882,757..........51,878,172.......... ..32,511,270
    1417......09,443,766..........51,501,867.......... ..32,695,864
    1418......09,637,061..........51,694,549.......... ..31,804,385
    1419......09,605,553..........51,794,935.......... ..32,248,673
    1420......09,533,492..........51,446,434.......... ..32,399,206
    1421......09,703,360..........51,774,228.......... ..32,421,831
    1422......09,665,133..........58,688,691.......... ..32,426,739
    1423......09,972,125..........52,763,174.......... ..32,373,741
    1424......10,066,080..........52,468,152.......... ..32,601,206

    Taxation and Governmental Finance in Sixteenth-century China (Wanli Emperor):
    Province | Registered Acreage (mu) | Total Basic Assessment (piculs of grain, dan) | Indicated Average (dan per mu)
    Zhejiang | 46,696,982 | 2,522,627 | 0.054
    Jiangxi | 40,115,127 | 2,616,341 | 0.065
    Huguang | 221,619,940 | 2,162,183 | 0.010
    Fujian | 13,422,500 | 851,153 | 0.063
    Shandong | 61,749,899 | 2,850,936 | 0.046
    Shanxi | 36,803,927 | 2,314,802 | 0.063
    Henan | 74,157,951 | 2,380,759 | 0.032
    Shaanxi | 29,292,385 | 1,735,690 | 0.059
    Sichuan | 13,482,767 | 1,082,544 | 0.080
    Guangdong | 25,686,513 | 999,946 | 0.039
    Guangxi | 9,402,074 | 371,696 | 0.040
    Yunnan | 1,799,358 | 142,690 | 0.079
    Guizhou | 516,686 | 50,807 | 0.098
    South Zhili | 77,394,662 | 6,011,846 | 0.078
    North Zhili | 49,256,836 | 598,622 | 0.012
    Average | 701,397,607 | 26,692,642 | 0.038

    (According to Ray Huang's estimates, one dan is equal to 0.8 taels of silver)

    As these were used for the administration of the state it would be counter productive to lie about them. While corruption on the local level is possible they would not exaggerate by this much as the officials in the capital would easily find out.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; June 24, 2016 at 07:21 PM.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Grain production in Agro-Military Colonies during the reign of Yongle (1400's):
    Year...........Grain Production in Piculs
    1403..........23,450,799 piculs
    1404..........12,760,300
    1405..........12,467,700
    1406..........19,792,050
    1407..........14,374,270
    1408..........13,718,400
    1409..........12,229,600
    1410..........10,368,550
    1411..........12,660,970
    1412..........11,787,000
    1413..........09,109,110
    1414..........09,738,690
    1415..........10,358,250
    1416..........09,031,970
    1417..........09,282,180
    1418..........08,119,670
    1419..........07,930,920
    1420..........05,158,040
    1421..........05,169,120
    1422..........05,175,345
    1423..........05,171,218

    Population during reign of Yongle 1400's (includes Annam):
    Year.......Households..........Population............Grain Tax in Piculs
    1403......11,415,829..........66,598,337.......... ..31,299,704
    1404......09,685,020..........50,950,470.......... ..31,874,371
    1405......09,689,260..........51,618,500.......... ..31,133,993
    1406......09,687,859..........51,524,656.......... ..30,700,569
    1407......09,822,912..........51,878,572.......... ..29,824,436
    1408......09,443,876..........51,502,077.......... ..30,469,293
    1409......09,637,261..........51,694,769.......... ..31,005,458
    1410......09,655,755..........51,775,255.......... ..30,623,138
    1411......09,533,692..........51,446,834.......... ..30,718,814
    1412......10,992,432..........65,377,633.......... ..34,612,692
    1413......09,689,052..........56,618,209.......... ..32,574,248
    1414......09,687,729..........51,524,436.......... ..32,640,828
    1415......09,687,729..........51,524,436.......... ..32,640,828
    1416......09,882,757..........51,878,172.......... ..32,511,270
    1417......09,443,766..........51,501,867.......... ..32,695,864
    1418......09,637,061..........51,694,549.......... ..31,804,385
    1419......09,605,553..........51,794,935.......... ..32,248,673
    1420......09,533,492..........51,446,434.......... ..32,399,206
    1421......09,703,360..........51,774,228.......... ..32,421,831
    1422......09,665,133..........58,688,691.......... ..32,426,739
    1423......09,972,125..........52,763,174.......... ..32,373,741
    1424......10,066,080..........52,468,152.......... ..32,601,206

    Taxation and Governmental Finance in Sixteenth-century China (Wanli Emperor):
    Province | Registered Acreage (mu) | Total Basic Assessment (piculs of grain, dan) | Indicated Average (dan per mu)
    Zhejiang | 46,696,982 | 2,522,627 | 0.054
    Jiangxi | 40,115,127 | 2,616,341 | 0.065
    Huguang | 221,619,940 | 2,162,183 | 0.010
    Fujian | 13,422,500 | 851,153 | 0.063
    Shandong | 61,749,899 | 2,850,936 | 0.046
    Shanxi | 36,803,927 | 2,314,802 | 0.063
    Henan | 74,157,951 | 2,380,759 | 0.032
    Shaanxi | 29,292,385 | 1,735,690 | 0.059
    Sichuan | 13,482,767 | 1,082,544 | 0.080
    Guangdong | 25,686,513 | 999,946 | 0.039
    Guangxi | 9,402,074 | 371,696 | 0.040
    Yunnan | 1,799,358 | 142,690 | 0.079
    Guizhou | 516,686 | 50,807 | 0.098
    South Zhili | 77,394,662 | 6,011,846 | 0.078
    North Zhili | 49,256,836 | 598,622 | 0.012
    Average | 701,397,607 | 26,692,642 | 0.038

    (According to Ray Huang's estimates, one dan is equal to 0.8 taels of silver)

    As these were used for the administration of the state it would be counter productive to lie about them. While corruption on the local level is possible they would not exaggerate by this much as the officials in the capital would easily find out.
    I believe it is mostly true, but be careful about that assumption. Renowned Sinologist and historian Timothy Brook argues, at least in the case of Ming Dynasty census figures, that families across the empire generally underreported the amount of people in their household to evade taxation. This was especially the case with girls and young women. This is deduced from obviously lopsided records of the numbers of men and women in certain prefectures. There should be no reason why men should outnumber the women so drastically in such areas like northern Zhili, since infanticide alone simply could not account for it. That means that the real Ming population figures were likely much higher (!!!), Brook uses gazetteers to estimate that in the mid 15th century the population was at 75 million, despite being recorded as roughly 62 million in the census. At the empire's height a century later, Brook estimates a whopping 175 million people (although the historian John Fairbank was a bit more conservative and estimated a population of 160 million).

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    The 13 BC equipment record found in 1993, it states 537,707 crossbows, 587,299 suits of lamellar armor, 451,222 polearms and 311,069 swords...all in storage.

    So forgive me if I call absolute fairy dreams on all of it and consequentially also on the provided numbers of anything over 150ish 000 men in a single campaign.
    Did it all have to be in the same building, as you've alluded above? Why not multiple storage facilities? In either case, yes, it sounds pretty astounding, if not unbelievable.

    Certain things should be considered. Firstly, the professional standing army of the Western Han (202 BC - 9 AD) and Eastern Han (25 - 220 AD) eras was the Northern Army, or in Chinese Beijun 北軍. This was an incredibly small but elite force, fluctuating between 3,500 and 4,200 men, which at times was bolstered by two or three strategically-placed reserve forces each numbering 1,000 men. The enormous amounts of weaponry, armor, and equipment you've mentioned in the late Western-Han-era storage houses obviously weren't used by these guys alone, if they were used by them at all. It sounds to me that it was meant for the far larger force of unpaid conscripted peasants in the Southern Army, or Nanjun 南軍, who were trained for one year how to fight and performed another full year of active service before being discharged. This was changed during the Eastern-Han period, which commuted the corvee labor and army conscription with a tax, maintained a volunteer army instead to complement the professional standing one, and even hired mercenary forces for certain roles. After the Yellow Turban Rebellion of the 180s AD, the almost feudal armed retinues paid by and loyal to local lords also sprang up throughout the countryside as central authority waned and the imperial armed forces were weakened and undermined by the loss of revenue and the chaos of popular revolts.

    If there's one resource that ancient, Imperial, and Early-Modern China had in abundance, it was manpower. Their corvee labor was used to build entire cities and enormous new segments of the growing Great Wall (the Han-era remnants of which can still be seen in the rammed earth ruins of watchtowers and dilapidated wall sections of provinces like Gansu and Xinjiang). Thanks to the Terracotta Army, we know that the earlier Qin Dynasty was able to muster huge amounts of men and equip them very well. Perhaps many of the peasants who were conscripted into the army were also craftsmen and smiths who could fashion such armor and weaponry. Or perhaps the government hired them separately. It would make sense to make use of their free labor, though, as part of the general mandatory conscription service. Then again, I don't think the Western-Han conscripted peasants or even the Eastern-Han volunteer force were anywhere near as well armored as the small professional standing army, or the contemporary "Marian mules" of the Roman Republic and subsequent Principate on the other side of the world. Does this Eastern-Han spearman look very well-armored to you?



    They might have had hundreds of thousands of weapons in storage, including crossbows, but I don't think they had nearly as much armor as a regular Roman legion. In fact, I've seen some arguments that the Chinese, although having superior metallurgy with blast furances and cupola furnaces, didn't produce nearly the same amount of iron as the Roman Empire at its height. The easiest explanation for that could be the fact that the Western Han government maintained a strict monopoly over iron manufacturing, although that wouldn't explain the Eastern Han, who relinquished the state-run monopolies of salt and iron to private interests and merchants.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Aside from the Hongwu Emperor himself (Zhu Yuanzhang/Chu Yuanchang)
    the major military commanders were:
    -Chang Yuchun (Yu-Chun)
    -Xu Da (Hsu Ta)
    -Lan Yu
    -Mu Ying
    -Feng Sheng
    -Fu Youde (Yu-te)
    -Li Wenchung
    -Deng Yu (Teng Yu)
    -Li Shanchang
    -Liao Yongzhong (Yung-chung)
    -Dang He (Tang Ho)
    -Wang Pi
    -Zhu Gang (Chu Gang) (Prince of Jin)
    -Zhu Quan (Chu Chuan) (Prince of Ning)
    -Zhu Di (Chu Ti) (Prince of Yan)

    Fortunately with the exception of the princes (sons of Hongwu) many of them had been purged by Hongwu or died of natural causes. When his grandson the Jiajing Emperor was embroiled in a war with his uncle Zhu Di the generals which opposed Zhu Di were the guys who had served under the above. They were defeated and Zhu Di took Nanjing and crowned himself emperor.


    What did the ranking system look like that they used?

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    They might have had hundreds of thousands of weapons in stoage, including crossbows, but I don't think they had nearly as much armor as a regular Roman legion. In fact, I've seen some arguments that the Chinese, although having superior metallurgy with blast furances and cupola furnaces, didn't produce nearly the same amount of iron as the Roman Empire at its height. The easiest explanation for that could be the fact that the Western Han government maintained a strict monopoly over iron manufacturing, although that wouldn't explain the Eastern Han, who relinquished the state-run monopolies of salt and iron to private interests and merchants.
    I agree with you. Unfortunately, media's effect is too strong. Today, everyone really believe Chinese troops always be equipped with full armor, no matter they are imperial guard, regular army, militia or even... Rebellion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTyfVhmrA34

    From 43:42 - the battle between Mongol and Red Turban Rebellion. Very funny, every soldiers the Chinese's Red Turban troops be full armor while Mongol soldiers only have shield to protect themselve ( just some general and cavalry troops have armor ).
    Last edited by yevon; June 25, 2016 at 04:16 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    The Romans recycled arms and armour, one would assume that after a campaign the Chinese quartermasters did the same.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoise Groudon View Post
    What did the ranking system look like that they used?
    To be honest I don't know. One of the interesting things that I found is that during the Hongwu Emperor's reign he had many talented generals. However over time he purged them due to fear that they would try to usurp the Ming Dynasty or they died from old age. Gradually the generals lost their powers and high ranks. For example Xu Da was made Chancellor of the Left within the court and according to the sources I used was given a private army of half a million troops. Xu Da's daughter was married off to Prince Zhu Di and later Xu Da died of old age. Lan Yu did not have as much prestige or power but for a time he too commanded the north east frontier and his daughter was married off to the Crown Prince Zhu Biao, however Lan Yu often got involved in arguments with Prince Zhu Di who ruled Beiping (Yan). However Lan Yu was purged by the Hongwu Emperor, possibly due to Zhu Di's influence. Gradually his sons were given more and more control over the armies in the north. This was a miscalculation on the Hongwu Emperor's part as Zhu Di was able to usurp the Jiajing Emperor son of Crown Prince Zhu Biao.

    During the Wanli Emperor's reign (contemporary of Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi) high ranking generals were only appointed to lead campaigns by the Wanli Emperor himself and at the end of the campaign the general's title would revert to whatever he had prior which was usually as a military governor on some frontier province.
    As for the names of these ranks themselves and the organization of the military forces I'm not sure. You might ask my friend Wu Guo.

    When it comes to the Ming Dynasty I am comparatively amateurish. My original readings being mostly concentrated among the Three Kingdoms period and the Qing Dynasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I believe it is mostly true, but be careful about that assumption. Renowned Sinologist and historian Timothy Brook argues, at least in the case of Ming Dynasty census figures, that families across the empire generally underreported the amount of people in their household to evade taxation. This was especially the case with girls and young women. This is deduced from obviously lopsided records of the numbers of men and women in certain prefectures. There should be no reason why men should outnumber the women so drastically in such areas like northern Zhili, since infanticide alone simply could not account for it. That means that the real Ming population figures were likely much higher (!!!), Brook uses gazetteers to estimate that in the mid 15th century the population was at 75 million, despite being recorded as roughly 62 million in the census. At the empire's height a century later, Brook estimates a whopping 175 million people (although the historian John Fairbank was a bit more conservative and estimated a population of 160 million).
    Very interesting. What I meant though was that the figures would not have been exaggerated too drastically. So for example if the real figure was like 50,000 no one would have tried to inflate the number to like 30 million.
    I would say that the administration was sort of at its peak for the day's standards. During the Qing Dynasty and especially the reign of the Shunzi Emperor and Kangxi Emperor the administrative reforms were rather limited. Most of it was just a slight addition or change to already existing Ming methods. Basically try to find the cracks in the Ming structure and fix them up a bit. But that did not fix all of the problems that were inherently wrong with the Ming system of government. There were also instances where more duties and powers were concentrated in the person of the Emperor himself and it caused other problems as well. Rather than rely on the judgement of good statesmen they relied on the poor judgement of the Emperor or his guardian.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    The Hongwu Emperor was a competent if not great military commander, an inspiring leader for a rebellion against the might of the Mongols. However, he was also a deluded old fool. In addition to becoming a megalomaniac and abusive tyrant who purged some of his top generals (as Oda refers to above), he also had delusions of grandeur that he could control the workings of the entire economy through the state...in the 14th century. Sound familiar??!! Mao Zedong much?

    Seriously, though, he forcefully moved entire populations from city to city, from one rural area to the next, in addition to thinking he could not only curb the power of the magnificently wealthy mercantile class, but also regulate what goods they could sell, where they could sell them, and even forbid them to leave their home districts. When it came to itinerant merchants he had a bizarre seething hatred for them. I understand that it was founded in the old Chinese idea spanning back to the Han Dynasty (although much more pronounced by the Song-dynasty period) about the Four Classes of people, with merchants being seen as lower than even farmers and craftsmen (let alone the scholarly-official class). Hongwu tried so hard to crush the merchants beneath his bootheels, but, as Jeff Goldblum alludes, "life finds a way," and so does wealth when it desires to couple itself with political power.

    Just look at what happened to the Ming Dynasty by the late 16th century. Beforehand merchants weren't allowed to be appointed to government offices at all. The blurring of that line started in the 15th century with scholar-officials engaging in commerce and market trading back in their hometowns and around their landed estates. By the last decades of the Ming they just dropped all pretenses that merchants and scholar-officials were two rigidly distinct classes and lifted the laws banning their presence in government positions. It was back to the days of the Tang! Until...you know...the economic downturn, loss of silver, cooling of the weather, crop failure, rebellions, and Manchus came around to dick that over.

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    It is amazing how the Hongwu seized power. He started off as a peasant and his family died of various things like illness and starvation. For a time he went on to live as a monk and maybe also a bandit. Joining the Red Turban rebels and rising through the ranks, even marrying the rebel leader's daughter. After the death of the Rebel Leader for the Red Turbans in the Yangtze area (as there were many groups throughout China, one of them tried to invade Korea!) they turned into regional warlords. By 1369 he had taken Beijing and controlled most of China. He even went on to rule for another 40 years! That is a long ass time.
    He was also supremely paranoid, many officials and generals were purged in his reign through execution, poison (allegedly) and demanding suicide. All things considered he was indeed a good general and a good strategist and he forbade offensive operations to be waged in Mongolia for logistical reasons. He also forbade costly campaigns to be waged in neighboring areas like Vietnam and Japan which makes sense because those places are a total to invade.

    His younger son Zhu Di is extremely interesting as well. I see much of his father in him. Also very paranoid but did not push the death penalty as much. Most of the people Zhu Di purged were sentenced to house arrest or temporary imprisonment. One minister was imprisoned three times and let out every time so that he could temporarily take part in the administration of the state. His imprisonment was apparently not that bad and he lived to an old age. Very strange anecdote.
    Though I have always been curious if Crown Prince Zhu Biao had not died. Would his brother Zhu Di try to usurp him? Zhu Biao was known to have called for less purges and a less restrictive policy. This caused the Hongwu Emperor to say "that is why I must do them now, because my son will not carry them out, I am protecting his future". Now Lan Yu's daughter was married to Zhu Biao but when Lan Yu got purged literally no one was safe. Hongwu designated Zhu Biao's son as successor and we all now how that went down... Zhu Di made himself Emperor of Ming. Why the Jiajing Emperor got usurped and how it happened so quickly is hard to know exactly. I know that these tier two generals were not up to the task of facing a veteran like Zhu Di but I don't think that can account for all the failures. According to the figures that I provided the years 1403-1404 show an enormous drop in the households and population but somehow the taxation remains almost constant throughout. While this could be due to the disruptive civil war I think there is also an indication to some kind of problem during the reign of the Jiajing Emperor as well which exacerbated the issue, there are also the bureaucratic problems mentioned by Roma_Victrix. If we look at the production of grain in agromilitary colonies in the north in the last few years of Zhu Di (Yongle), the numbers drop significantly and this may have been due to the campaigns against the Mongols. Though as I understand it the figures for the agromilitary colonies kept dropping throughout the Ming Dynasty for a reason that I cannot comprehend. It could be corruption and bureaucratic issues, social issues and the movement of populations (so desertion in this case) or even climate change who knows. The system that worked so well for Cao Cao 1200 years prior is failing here.

    The dislike of merchants might well have been due to Hongwu's peasant origins though I honestly don't know. It is probably due to that Confucian ideal "the merchant is the only one that does not produce anything and hordes all his wealth". Merchants were seen as very negative throughout the world especially the Middle East during the outbreak of the Bubonic plague. Zealots preached that this was the punishment of Allah upon the greedy merchants for example.
    It is interesting that while the Qing Emperors seemed to engage in merchantry themselves they also had a poor opinion of merchants. When the Qing took over something like all the jade and salt was owned directly by the Emperor (not even the state!) and he could receive revenues from it at will, in fact it was he who designated who could and could not buy it. They also engaged in the trading of fancy textiles and rare spices and herbs, very strange behaviour for a head of state. On the other hand the Emperor always had direct access to the treasury or could support themselves.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    The 13 BC equipment record found in 1993, it states 537,707 crossbows, 587,299 suits of lamellar armor, 451,222 polearms and 311,069 swords...all in storage.

    So forgive me if I call absolute fairy dreams on all of it and consequentially also on the provided numbers of anything over 150ish 000 men in a single campaign.
    That came from an ACCOUNTING slip buried in a Han-era official's grave, along with other accounting records such as the census records. This is entirely different from, say, Herodotus' account of Persia's 5 million sized army because he's writing propaganda to sell to his intended audience. For the Donghai Commandery records, the intended audience was the official himself. We're not talking about a historic novel written for massed consumption, we're talking about an accounting slip found buried in a grave. That grave wasn't meant to be exhumed. There is no reason to lie about the accounting record for the same reason that there is no reason to lie about your grocery list. Now, some argue that the equipment from the Donghai Commandery Records came from the Chang'an capital, while others argue that the equipment was distributed around Donghai and surrounding Commanderies. Whatever the case may be, here is the size of Chang'an's arsenal buildings designed to store arms and armor, put next to a Roman city in North Africa:



    Both maps are scaled to each other. Here are the Donghai arsenal buildings when put inside the Roman city:



    Remember that equipment, unlike humans, can be stacked. The size of these buildings are based upon archaeological excavation, not written documents. Adding the roofed area of all the excavated arsenal buildings together means we get about 40,000 square meters. That's about 10,000 square meters more than the El Escorial palace:



    And all that is just in the capital. Plus, we haven't even found the arsenal used for storing crossbows yet.

    The contemporary bridges around Chang'an also tend to be over a dozen meters wide (which implies the road leading up the bridges were about that wide too). The biggest(but not widest) bridge excavated was 880 meters long and 15.4 meters wide. Such a gigantic width implies that large armies were intended to march through it. Narrow roads would shorten the width of a marching column, thus increasing the length of the marching army. So you'll end up with a problem in which by the time the front of the army is making camp, the tail of the army hasn't even started marching yet. Very wide roads would mitigate this problem by several fold. And then we have evidence of actual roads such as the Qin Zhi Dao with a average width of about 20 meters:

    Last edited by HackneyedScribe; June 27, 2016 at 07:35 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post



    They might have had hundreds of thousands of weapons in storage, including crossbows, but I don't think they had nearly as much armor as a regular Roman legion. In fact, I've seen some arguments that the Chinese, although having superior metallurgy with blast furances and cupola furnaces, didn't produce nearly the same amount of iron as the Roman Empire at its height. The easiest explanation for that could be the fact that the Western Han government maintained a strict monopoly over iron manufacturing, although that wouldn't explain the Eastern Han, who relinquished the state-run monopolies of salt and iron to private interests and merchants.
    That actually might be more armored than you think. Remember that bladed weapons would have a hard time cutting through thick cloth, and a Han soldier's robes were most likely made of hemp (being their cheapest and most abundant fabric). Hemp had even higher protective abilities than linen, the latter of which was commonly used for gambesons. That would probably explain why Han swords were pretty sharp for their material, as it needs to cut more than just skin. Plus, this person seem to be in the style of the very very early Han soldiers (if he was indeed a soldier, hard to tell because commoner's robes aren't all that different), ie first Han emperor early. Yes, during this time they certainly had a lack of armor if we assume they had no underarmor (some terracotta cavalry showed what appears to be thigh protectors peaking from beneath their robes, no way to say how much that armor extends to the rest of the body). During this time, the terracotta army only showed roughly 40% armor for the infantry, and almost zero for the cavalry (but again, their thick hemp clothing would have afforded some protection). But during this time the Roman legions looked like this:



    By the mid-Western Han (around the time of the Marian reforms), we found terracotta soldiers looking like these:



    As for iron output, there is a problem when comparing a liberal estimate from one author to a conservative estimate from another different author, using different guidelines for estimation. Donald Wagner may have estimated a Han annual production based off of the assumption that there were 50 iron offices with one blast furnace each, and each blast furnace producing 100 tonnes per year. However, by Wagner’s own account this amount was too small by magnitudes. For one, Wagner worked under the assumption that each blast furnace produced “100 tons per year”, yet the only detailed estimation for Han blast furnace iron production he gave was more than twice this amount: 222.65 tons per year, a figure that he nevertheless deemed “on the low side” due to an inaccurate variable within the calculation [Handbook of Oriental Studies, part 4, Volume nine, page 265]. He concludes that for a typical Han blast furnace “we can say no more than that production was probably several hundred tons per year”. This by itself meant that annual Han iron production would be several times more than 5000 tons per year. Furthermore, his estimation worked off of the assumption that there was only 1 blast furnace per iron office, when in fact each iron office could have multiple ironwork sites, and each ironwork site would on average have at least 1 blast furnace. Professor Li Jinghua estimated that the bigger Iron Offices contain 3-4 smelting sites. The medium-sized Iron Offices contain 2 smelting workshops, whereas the smallest Iron Offices contain only 1 smelter. Ergo, we can conclude that on average there may be 2 blast furnaces per Iron Office. So Donald’s estimate only calculated the output of 50 blast furnaces, when in fact there was at least twice the amount of operational blast furnaces within the 49 Iron Offices during the time period his calculation was based off of. Also, it does not take into account the fact that there were in fact up to 90 iron offices by Eastern Han, as opposed to the 49 iron office of Western Han. Using Donald Wagner’s equation, with the correct variables, with 49 iron offices, and assuming approximately ~2 blast furnace per iron office, there would be ~98 blast furnaces throughout the empire. With each furnace producing “several hundred tons per year”, this results in a very rough estimate of ~50,000 tons of iron produced per year during the Western Han dynasty. By the Eastern Han, the efficiency of furnaces increased as the Eastern Han started adopting waterwheels to power furnaces, in addition to the usual man or animal power.

    ------------------------------Wagner/Needham's inputed value-------------------Wagner/Needham's supported value
    annual furnace production--------------100 tons------------------------------------"several hundred tons"
    Furnaces per iron office---------------------1----------------------------------------------- 3
    number of iron offices-----------------------50----------------------------------------------49
    resulting annual production---------100*1*50=5000 tons/year------------------300*3*49=44,100 tons/year

    Using figures that Donald/Needham themselves supported and plugging them into their own equation, their estimate is too small by a factor of 9. If we include the fact that there were 90 Iron Offices, then the amount of iron production per year by the Eastern Han would be 81,000 tonnes. This number could have only increased by Eastern Han due to the privatization of iron. I do not pretend that the new estimation is accurate by any means, but we can say that Han annual iron production shouldn't be in the thousands, but in the tens of thousands.

    As for the usual Roman iron production of 81,250 tonnes per year often used to compare against Wagner's estimation of 5000 tonnes for the Han dynasty, realize that the estimation is built out of thin air. The estimation simply ASSUMED 1.5 kg per capita iron production, and then multiplied 1.5 kg by Rome's population. Absolutely nothing is used to justify why 1.5 kg per capita is correct, they just picked a number as long as it was less than that of English seventeenth century per capita iron production of 4.5 kg/head. If we estimate Roman iron production using the method that Donald Wagner used to estimate Han iron production, we would get 20,000 tonnes (from Henry Cleere's estimation of total Roman British iron production, and then multiplying that by the amount that the empire's population surpasses that of Roman Britain). So if we use Wagner’s way to calculate Roman iron production like what he did for the Han dynasty, then Roman iron production wouldn’t be that high either. Not saying his way would produce an accurate result, but it's something to think about before making such comparisons from estimations made by different authors.
    Last edited by HackneyedScribe; June 28, 2016 at 02:27 AM.

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    I should also mention that rice output is massive. Wet field agriculture generally provides at least twice as much food surplus than dry field agriculture. Especially rice since it provides so many grains and you can grow so much of it.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Rise of Ming and the Conquest of China

    Rice cultivation probably applies much to the Ming dynasty, in which rice was its main staple crop. For the Han dynasty, most of the population still lived up North, where dry farming of millet still predominates. However, the Han did have several agricultural practices going for them (most of which would be practiced by the Ming as well). Precision seeding which had been practiced since the Warring States era would increase crop yield as well as seed output ratio. The practice of alternating fields arose during the Western Han and the government took an active part in spreading this through the empire. The practice of polyculture and 3-field crop rotation would have maintained soil fertility while increasing output per acre. For the landed elites, we even have mention of pretreatment of seed, a practice that wouldn't be practiced again until the 20th century.

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