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Thread: Terrorist shooting at LGBT nightclub in Orlando: 50 dead

  1. #481
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Terrorist shooting at LGBT nightclub in Orlando: 50 dead

    The way I see it the British and French did not exactly help the situation at all by cutting up the Middle East along mostly artificial lines.
    However the problems were there regardless and would have exploded had there not been a French or British presence. All anyone need do is look up the multiple Druze revolts in Syria and the Lebanon, or the Armenian conflicts, or the revolts in Arabia or the Kurdish uprisings many years prior to the First World War.

    Anyone who thinks that we wouldn't have gotten the same situation as today is dreaming. The difference is that it would have been self contained and probably would not have had as many suicide bombings. Just that it would have occurred in the 1920's all the way to the 1950's perhaps. All we did was keep a lid on it.

    I have no White man's guilt. I am from South America so no one in my family had anything to do with it.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  2. #482

    Default Re: Terrorist shooting at LGBT nightclub in Orlando: 50 dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    The way I see it the British and French did not exactly help the situation at all by cutting up the Middle East along mostly artificial lines.
    However the problems were there regardless and would have exploded had there not been a French or British presence. All anyone need do is look up the multiple Druze revolts in Syria and the Lebanon, or the Armenian conflicts, or the revolts in Arabia or the Kurdish uprisings many years prior to the First World War.

    Anyone who thinks that we wouldn't have gotten the same situation as today is dreaming. The difference is that it would have been self contained and probably would not have had as many suicide bombings. Just that it would have occurred in the 1920's all the way to the 1950's perhaps. All we did was keep a lid on it.

    I have no White man's guilt. I am from South America so no one in my family had anything to do with it.
    Yes. My first post was a bit absolute and hyperbolic. You are definitely right the issue is more complex.

    However where you say "British and French did not exactly help" I would say that the British and French multiplied and exacerbated the issues to an exponential degree.

    Yes the Middle East had pre-existing issues. From the Turks massacring Armenians for decades before WWI to the Saudi's spreading radical Wahabbi theology to whole issue of the beginning of the 20th Century of Europe not wanting the Jews in Europe so they supported an Israeli state. And yes there were also external factors like the Treaty of Versailles' harsh punitive effect on Germany, Stalin rise to power and the fascist and communist movements.

    But despite all the "what ifs" I think its very clear that if Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points had actually been adopted both in letter of the law and in spirit, a LOT of current problems with the Middle East would have been minimized compared to what actually happened. For instance just Wilson's point about how to break up the Ottoman Empire would have avoided massive repercussions that happened for decades after the ridiculous Sykes-Picot Agreement. Look at how many issues could have been avoid if there always was a Kurdistan after WWI instead of the Kurds being an oppressed ethnic minority in three different countries for a century.

    While there are so many variables who knows if WWII would have even happened with Wilson-esque Treaty of Versailles more in line with the Concert of Europe than the bitter punitive Treaty we got because of England and France. So its true its hard to really make definitive predictions but I fail to see any legitimate alternate scenario where the world would be the same or worse if we adopted Wilson's 14 Points instead of the bitter ignorant French and British punitive plan. With the end results of the British and French demands in the Treaty of Versailles and Sykes-Picot what the world got was about the worst of all possible worlds. There was literally nothing positive about what England and France did at the end of WWI and many problems were multiplied by their stance.
    Last edited by chilon; June 25, 2016 at 06:01 PM.
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  3. #483
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Terrorist shooting at LGBT nightclub in Orlando: 50 dead

    The thing is that dividing the Middle East along ethnic and religious lines into separate states was not an option either. The Hashemites would never have accepted a division of the "empire" or "confederation", or what have you, in such a way.
    The invasion of Syria by the Allies in 1917 could be seen also as a foreign invasion on behalf of King Feisal, who invaded from the Hejaz. The native Syrian populace would have been indifferent to their overlords and the only thing holding these areas together were a concept of Arab nationalism. This contrasts greatly with Turkish nationalism or Kurdish nationalism or Armenian nationalism in these areas. Nationalism and western political ideologies were on the rise even here as well. So assuming you could isolate the majority of these ethnic groups into their own states there would still be similar border conflicts as we saw in Europe with Italians and Southern Slavs fighting over Trieste or Hungarians fighting Romanians over Transylvania or Czechoslovaks fighting Germans and Hungarians or Germans and French fighting over the Rhineland or Germans and Poles fighting over Silesia and Danzig etc. Now the 14 points would have had these European areas voting over which state to join. But in the Middle East it would be extremely hard to remove all of the inhabitants from a specific area and transplant them to another area, logistically and in their sort of tribal conflicts especially in how they were so interspersed, I mean if it was a problem in the Adriatic and along Germany's border it certainly would be a much bigger problem in our case. I think the best example would be the current India-Pakistan partition.

    I mean look at this utter chaos:






    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; June 25, 2016 at 06:56 PM.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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