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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #121

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Illyrians have a point more armour and heavier javelins.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  2. #122

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Illyrians have a point more armour and heavier javelins.
    True, but colonists ger armor upgrades, have a point more attack, slightly more mass, better bonuses to fighting in different terrain, one point better heat stat. And the price difference is 414.

    I just want to know is there a historical/culture reason that underlies the pricing difference?

  3. #123

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    There's no historical or cultural reason behind any of the costs, they're all based on the same formula. More armour and heavier javelins equals higher cost.

    Attack values aren't part of costing, nor are terrain bonuses, mass or fatigue. Armour upgrades are priced separately on the cost line.

    Here's the formula:

    Code:
    A: values 1 through 4
    - 1 = levy
    - 2 = regular infantryman and light cavalry
    - 3 = elite infantryman and regular cavalry
    - 4 = elite cavalry
    
    B:Addition of armor values depending on unit
    - helmet +1
    - 1 greave +0.5
    - 2 greaves +1
    - soft armour +0.5
    - scale shirt, and linothorax +1
    - mail +1.5
    - breatplate +2
    - cheires + 1
    - small shield +0.5
    - large shield +1.0
    
    C: weapons
    - sword +1
    - spear +1 (including kontos, sarissa, xyston)
    - dagger +0.25
    - longsword, kopis +1.5
    - rhomphaia +2
    - sling +0.1
    - simple bow +0.25
    - recurve bow +0.5
    - javelins +0.5
    - longchai +1.0
    - pila/soliferra +1.5
    - axe +0.75
    - club +0.5
    
    D: 2 through 3 based on green through elite
    2 = levy/green and skirmishers
    2.25 = militia-type units, drafted regionals, or semi-professionals
    2.5 = regular
    2.75 = veteran
    3 = elite
    
    F: Number of men in unit on normal setting
    
    H: horse type
    Camel = 5.5
    Pony = 6
    Horse = 7
    Nisaean = 8
    1/2 barding = +2
    3/4 barding = +3
    full barding = +4
    
    Equation:
    cost = F[D(A+B+C+H)]
    The Illyrians are elites; they probably need an increase in morale.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; July 30, 2017 at 11:47 AM.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  4. #124

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I love that chart, clears up a lot.

    So in addition to those values, I'm assuming that you have a base "people" whose stats affect the resulting unit?

    Like a base Illyrian, with a set base attack modifier, environmental penalties and boni, etc. and thraikians have better attack stats?

  5. #125

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krampus View Post
    I love that chart, clears up a lot.

    So in addition to those values, I'm assuming that you have a base "people" whose stats affect the resulting unit?

    Like a base Illyrian, with a set base attack modifier, environmental penalties and boni, etc. and thraikians have better attack stats?
    Not as such; each unit's stats are primarily based on their equipment and status, the only "cultural" value is morale.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  6. #126

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Not as such; each unit's stats are primarily based on their equipment and status, the only "cultural" value is morale.
    So then how did the Illyrian end up with a lower attack value?

  7. #127

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Do all javelins cost the same (0.5) regardless of projectile damage? I ask because longchai is costed as 1.0

  8. #128

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Do all javelins cost the same (0.5) regardless of projectile damage? I ask because longchai is costed as 1.0
    No, javelins have different costs:
    - javelins +0.5
    - longchai +1.0
    - pila/soliferra +1.5
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  9. #129

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Should Hippakontistai (hellenic skirmisher cav) be armed with secondary (7) ap weapons? It's the same weapon Tarantinoi, Hippomachoi, etc. have, yet hippakontistai are levy.

    Isn't the price for Raskumezenai (thracian skirmisher cav) a bit undercosted? Compared to similar units in their range (ex. kurepos, kappodakiya), they overperform and aren't particularly pricey.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Should Hippakontistai (hellenic skirmisher cav) be armed with secondary (7) ap weapons? It's the same weapon Tarantinoi, Hippomachoi, etc. have, yet hippakontistai are levy.

    Isn't the price for Raskumezenai (thracian skirmisher cav) a bit undercosted? Compared to similar units in their range (ex. kurepos, kappodakiya), they overperform and aren't particularly pricey.
    They have kopides. Those are the stats (and thus cost) for a kopis. They're also not levies, a man who owns a few horses is by definition not poor. They're actually the older, more traditional form of Greek cavalry, before the Makedonian influence turned towards lancers.

    Raskumezenai are priced on the same formula as those other units. How they perform isn't a factor in the costing, it's about their equipment, status, size and so on. Aswar i Kappodakiya have better armour and are better horsemen, and have a heavier projectile. Kurepos are cheaper (except as mercenaries, because all mercenaries are 50% more expensive than the recruitable variety, partly reflecting that they come with 1XP).
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  11. #131

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Ethiopian archers have a shield value of 5, but the model has no shield at all.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    Ethiopian archers have a shield value of 5, but the model has no shield at all.
    Yes they do, it doesn't appear until they switch to their secondary weapon.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  13. #133

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Galatianized Swordsmen and Spearmen seem either overcosted or underpowered compared to units with similar stats, such as Illyrioi Hoplitai, Hemithorakitai Peltophoroi, Uazali, Cladiveti.

    At the very least, is there a particular reason why they don't have the "hardy" trait?

  14. #134

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krampus View Post
    Galatianized Swordsmen and Spearmen seem either overcosted or underpowered compared to units with similar stats, such as Illyrioi Hoplitai, Hemithorakitai Peltophoroi, Uazali, Cladiveti.

    At the very least, is there a particular reason why they don't have the "hardy" trait?
    Those aren't similar units; the Illyrioi and Hemithorakitai both have small shields and the latter lower melee attack. They're semi-professionals and professionals, which counts in their morale. The comparison for the swordsmen is to Machairophoroi (to whom they are equivalent), and the spearmen to Thureophoroi (to whom then are semi-professional, rather than professional).
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  15. #135

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Those aren't similar units; the Illyrioi and Hemithorakitai both have small shields and the latter lower melee attack. They're semi-professionals and professionals, which counts in their morale. The comparison for the swordsmen is to Machairophoroi (to whom they are equivalent), and the spearmen to Thureophoroi (to whom then are semi-professional, rather than professional).
    Ok, that's fair.

    I'm still wondering why the lack of stamina, most comparable units have hardy. Is there a particular system you have behind assigning that trait?
    Last edited by Krampus; September 24, 2017 at 12:08 PM.

  16. #136

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    2.3, here I come!
    Galatian colonists have such a low armor rating compared to their visual appearance and comparable units.

    Comparison:
    1. Galatian raiders - no body armor whatsoever, 2 types of helmets - armor rating of 2
    2. Galatinised spearmen - 2 types of body armor, i.e. two linothorax like items, two types of helmets - armor rating of 4
    3. Galatines swordsmen - 3 types of body armor, i.e 1 mail shirt and 2 linothorax - 3 types of helmets - armor rating of 5
    4. Galatian colonists - 1 types of body armor, i.e 1 mail shirt - two types of helmets - armor rating - 3

    In my view, the Galatian colonists are more comparable to the Galatinised spearmen, rather to the Galatian raiders in terms of gear. Their initial armor rating should be 4.
    Last edited by Rad; October 22, 2017 at 06:53 AM.

  17. #137

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Galatian Colonists look a lot like Bataroi to me, a side by side on custom battle and they're armed basically the same: most have metal helmets and about 1 in 3 have body armor.

    The only difference is Colonists have Mail shirts while Bataroi have some sort of leather cuirass.

    Do these two different types of body armor have the same armor rating?

    Also, just comparing them with Thracian colonists, would they not have been wealthier than their celtic mercenary brethren, and therefore better armored?

  18. #138

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Galatian Colonists have a few nude bodies in the early versions AFAIK. That can at least partially explain some of the lower armor values.

  19. #139

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    @Krampus
    I tried comparing them to similar units found in the same area. The end result was that I felt their armor rating was too low.
    Mail should have a higher armor rating than leather/padded armor. Leather/padding offers decent protection against cuts, but it doesn't do great against thrusts. On the other hand, mail basically makes you immune to cuts (in the area it covers, ofc) and depending on the size of the rings (among other factors), offers great protection against thrusts.

    I have no idea why they're comparably less armored than the Thracian colonists, that one is up to the Eb team. Since they do have mail, they are wealthier than Bataroi and Galatian raiders. After their armor upgrade, they fare much better. They get more armor and helmets.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    @Genghis
    True, but they have mail, which I see as a great equalizer in overall protection. The low armor rating actually becomes more apparent when they get the armor upgrade - i.e. two new sets of body armor and more helmets.

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