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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #101

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    New comparisson: Hemithorakitai vs Jewish spearmen. I've already mentioned that the Hemithorakitai have a bigger armor value for no reason, but now I've noticed that their melee attack is a lot higher than the Jewish spearmen. It's 7 compared to 5. Can this be justified with professionalism or something else?
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  2. #102

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    New one: Polybian Principes vs Nabatean Royal Guard. The issue is that they have the same armor rating (8), but the Nabateans have much better gear. The NRG is way too light, especially compared to other elite units.

    Comparison:

    1. Principes:
    All have helmets
    Most (or at least half) have greaves, some just on the leading leg.
    Body armor: 2 maille, 1 linothorax, 2 small Italic breastplates

    2. NRG
    All have helmets
    All have a pair of greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscle cuirass, 2 metal scale armor, 1 leather spola

    The NRG is much closer to the Sacred Band infantry, who have an armor rating of 11.
    Last edited by Rad; September 20, 2016 at 02:03 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  3. #103

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Many little stat change proposals:

    Retainer infantry should be regulated for defense skill, if EBII is planning to consider them elite elite, they all should have 12, if not 9
    those affected: boii retainers, celtic retainers, Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi)
    They're not elites, they're veterans, which means 9. Note Ambaktoi and Agrokunoi aren't retainers, they're semi-professionals. The flawed business of all the British roster all being either levies or elites has been rectified now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Gldgmtk should have shield value 3 and a defense skill of 9 (elite cavalry like donno eporedoi)
    Only the bodyguard versions get a 9, with a few exceptions. Note the recruitable version of Donno Eporedoi are a 6. Shield values have all been revised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Maure cavalry and infantry should have a defense skill of 6 (they look more like semi professional troops rather than levy to me but 3 is fine if they're levy)

    Maure cavalry should have a shield value of 3.

    Mepaqed Numidim should have a shield value of 3
    It's not so much that they're levy, but that they aren't melee combatants in the main. The Numidians were noted to be exceptional horsemen, which is why their skirmishers merit a 6.

    Again, all the shield values have been reviewed and amended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Merkabim Garamantim should have defense skill of 9, same as Esseda

    Merkabim Garamantim should have a shield value of 4 (lower than Esseda but not so little as 2 both of the javeliners on the chariot are shielded)
    Celtic charioteers are retainers; these guys aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Parasim Garamantim should have a defense skill of 6 or 9 (if they're garmantes nobles)
    Like the Numidians and Maures above, they're not melee cavalry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Thraikioi Mezenai should have a shield value of 4
    They have the common cavalry thureos value of 3, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Hoplita should have a defense skill of 6 (unless it's 5 deliberately because of formation effect)

    Spartiatai Hoplitai should have a defense skill of 12 (elite, similar to boii retainers)

    Somatophylakes Strategou should have a defense skill of 12 (elite, similar to pritanoi bodyguard or sweboz bodyguard infantry)

    Misthophoroi Hoplitai should have a defense skill of 9 (professional/mercenary grade like peltanai)

    Epilektoi Hoplitai should have a defense skill of 12 (elite, like other infantry bodyguards)

    Hyperaspistai should have a defense skill of 12 (elite infantry)
    Hoplites are an exception to the 3/6/9 standard. Their defensive skill ranges from 3-6, with elites getting 9.

    With the revision of shield values (aspis 6, thureos 5), that balances better than it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Kurepos should have a defense skill of 9 (professional/mercenary)
    Again no, this is only for guard cavalry. They now have a 6, where the recruitable Celtic/British skirmisher cavalry have a 3 (because they're not melee combatants).

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Erínamesh ana-Arabim should have a shield value of 7 (aspis) or 8, I never encountered a value of 9 that they have)
    Theirs is now 7, altered when all shield values were changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Arezages Gustoi should have a defense skill of 12 (elite)
    No, 9 is the defensive skill for guard cavalry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Redoi should have a defense skill of 3 (levy grade similar to Hippakontistai no?)
    Already been changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Kinnetoi Kallaekoi should have a defense skill of 6 (semi professional unless they are 9 on purpose)
    9 because they're professional grade, sword-and-boarders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Caetrata Iuventus should have a defense skill of 6 (semi professional no?)
    As above, swordsmen get a boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    [email protected] Balearim should have a defense skill of 9 (professional grade)
    They're not professional grade melee fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Skuda Azdata should have a defense skill of 9 (noble cavalry)
    Already changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Kareus should have a defense skill of 3 (if they're levy) or 6 (which is better making them similar to celtic spearmen)
    Germanic levies are an exception, because they don't have the same clearly defined levy/semi-professional/professional/veteran tiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Kauntikas should have a shield value of 5 (in my book lower than thuros but 6 if it's same as thuros but not 7 in any case no?)
    Theirs is a 5, same as a thureos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Peltastai Indohellenikoi should be 9 (if they are professional grade which I believe they are like peltanai)
    They're semi-professionals like Hemithorakitai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Uazali should have a shield value of 6 (big theuros grade)
    There are some small shields mixed in there (about half of them) thus the lower value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Mudunup i Kappodakiya should have a defense skill of 6 (mounted versions of Nezagdar i Kappodakiya, semi professional)
    Again, they're not melee fighters in the main, thus the lower defensive skill. It's pretty universal for most light skirmisher cavalry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Rompaianai should get a defense skill of 6 (elite but no shield) maybe 9 (because they're infantry)
    Theirs is 12; they're elites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Sakaya Aznya Ashwabara should get a defense skill of 9
    9 is for guard cavalry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Akhyar Hagaran should get a defense skill of 12 (elite)
    According to their description, they're only equivalent to the Khamis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Khamis should get a defense skill of 12 (elite)
    They're professionals, not elites. Note the size of the unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Magones should get a defense skill of 9 (they may be poorly equipped but they are nobles) or 6 (if you wanna differ them from other noble cavalry)

    Eqoreda very same story as Magones

    Markakoi should have a defense skill of 9 (elite heavy cavalry, shielded)
    Same in all three cases - they're nobles which is why they get a 6, but they're not guard cavalry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    Will club infantry be finally be useful as anti-armor infantry or at least flanking infantry? Axemen at least have javelins that allow them to weaken their enemies in preparation for a melee battle. The only advantage they have besides their numbers is that they don't have javelins messing up their charge and as such they quite effective in charge attacks.
    They've had an animation upgrade along with the swordsmen, which should make quite a big difference to their utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    New comparisson: Hemithorakitai vs Jewish spearmen. I've already mentioned that the Hemithorakitai have a bigger armor value for no reason, but now I've noticed that their melee attack is a lot higher than the Jewish spearmen. It's 7 compared to 5. Can this be justified with professionalism or something else?
    Hemithorakitai are semi-professionals, Ioudaioi are a better class of levy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    New one: Polybian Principes vs Nabatean Royal Guard. The issue is that they have the same armor rating (8), but the Nabateans have much better gear. The NRG is way too light, especially compared to other elite units.

    Comparison:

    1. Principes:
    All have helmets
    Most (or at least half) have greaves, some just on the leading leg.
    Body armor: 2 maille, 1 linothorax, 2 small Italic breastplates

    2. NRG
    All have helmets
    All have a pair of greaves
    Body armor: 2 muscle cuirass, 2 metal scale armor, 1 leather spola

    The NRG is much closer to the Sacred Band infantry, who have an armor rating of 11.
    I've upped the Nabatu Agema to 10, but more importantly given them a proper infantry formation. They had an archer's one before. They'll also benefit from the animation changes to swords, axes and clubs.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; September 22, 2016 at 06:56 AM.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  4. #104

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Mkay, sounds good. Remember to up the Jewish armor.


    I had a look at the stats of the Galatinised infantry ingame. The swordsmen really do have a higher armor rating than the spearmen. The lack of maille on the new spearmen models makes sense now.

    A higher class of warriors would own swords, but still primarily fight with spears if there was a tactical affinity - which for most of the ancient world, existed. It's wrong to give a unit more armor just because they have swords, instead of spears.
    Instead, they should have the same models and defensive stats.
    I understood the Galatinised infantry units as two units representing a single troop type's two different tactical roles, not an upper-lower class of soldier division.
    That means that the spearmen should get the maille model, and swords (visually).

    Just take a look at the Thureophoroi/Machairophoroi pair. Same troop type, same armor, same defensive stats. The only difference are weapons, because of two different tactical roles that troop type has.
    Last edited by Rad; September 22, 2016 at 12:08 PM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    British retainers:

    Same armor, or better to say, lack of armor on all 3 units.
    The problem rises in the armor rating. Retainer swordsmen and cavalry have an armor rating of 1, but Retainer spearmen have an armor rating of 3, which is surely too high.

    Error: British nobles, both infantry and cavalry, have 2 swords, one in hand, the other in the scabbard.

    Pet peeve: Units with maille armor without helmets
    Last edited by Rad; October 10, 2016 at 08:27 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  6. #106

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Dear Rad,
    As an oldtimer and avid player, I just want to say "thank you" for such an impressive support to EBII that hopefully will become as was EB, the mod for Kingdoms! In a way this brings the Real Combat of RR/RC into EBII.
    Best regards,
    FFJean
    Last edited by FFJean; October 16, 2016 at 04:58 AM.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thank you sir! I may be annoying to the team at (most) times, but I really do want the best for the mod and the people playing it.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Dear Rad,
    Criticisms are always annoying, in some way. But I am sure that yours are seen for what they are, ie positive criticisms aimed at making the game more coherent and thus more enjoyable.
    Sursum corda!
    Best regards,
    FFJean

  9. #109

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    You should see my nitpicking about the unit models
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFJean View Post
    Dear Rad,
    Sursum corda!
    Habemus ad Dominum is three to six centuries past game start

  11. #111

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    2.2r

    Komatai, Komatai toxotai - armor rating 3
    Komatai Hippotoxotai - armor rating 2

    None of those units has a single piece of armor.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The British retainer spearmen still have an undeserved armor rating of 3.

    Question: What influences you do give some unarmored units an armor rating of 1, while others receive 0. Clothing present in the models?
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  13. #113

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thracian peltasts' armor rating of 5 is too high.

    All the soldiers have a helmet, and 1 in 4 has a linothorax.

    The Hellenic hemithorakitai have the same equipment, but an armor rating of 4.

    Small inconsistency, but I found it odd that skirmishers have more armor rating than infantry while being equipped the same.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  14. #114

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Premise: Cappadocian cavalry is overpriced or undertuned for the price
    Comparison: Aswar i Kapoddakiya / Raskumezenai / Kurepos
    The cappadocians are the most expensive of these, but their performance or equipment isn't any better (lacking shields, 1 point more of armor). The cappadocians carry 2 longchai which do a lot less damage than all the volleys the Kurepos can put out, or the more powerful javelins used by the thracians - why are akon tipped javelins more damaging than a throwing spear? I expected throwing spears (longchai) to have more in common with solifera/pila, given the size of the spear. A javelin by definition is a small, lightweight spear, specialized to be thrown and to carry several of them. A thrusting spear is a lot heavier, and i think the impact of one should be greater than it is currently.
    The description of the thracian podromoi implies they are undisciplined (famous for looting, whoring, drinking, etc.) yet their training/morale doesn't really reflect that. The cappadocians are noblemen but are impetuous (undisciplined), same with other persian cavalry like the medians or the kinsmen heavy cavalry. Why are the iranian noblemen undisciplined, while the hellenistic equivalent are not.

  15. #115

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Kappodakiya have better horses, better armour, better thrown weapons, better defensive skill and better morale than both of those two units. They have significantly better missiles and morale than Kurepos.

    They're undisciplined precisely because they're nobles - each man thinks himself the master of the situation, he's not a lackey following the orders of his betters.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  16. #116

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Kappodakiya have better horses, better armour, better thrown weapons, better defensive skill and better morale than both of those two units. They have significantly better missiles and morale than Kurepos.
    The cappadocian horses don't seem significantly better, based on my testing: their speed and endurance are almost the same (all are hardy and recover at same rates), only thing i can think of maybe is the mass of the horse, but the mount sizes look very close too. This is based on testing these units on different situations, not looking at their stats on the files.
    The cappadocians have armour value of 4, the kurepos 2 + 3 (shield), the raskumenezai 3 + 3 (shield). Cavalry has the mobility to avoid being attacked on the rear/flank, to fight on their terms, so having a shield vs 1/2 extra points of armor, greatly favours the shield. If you count how shield provide double the protection for missile attacks, the bane of any light cavalry, then it's simple to see why they're superior. Particularly when they are significantly cheaper to recruit.
    I have done numerous test on this - the cappadocians ranged weapons are lackluster, they will cause around 5 casualties at most in a battle - their only usefulness is putting fire at will off and looking for a chance to shoot armored cavalry in the flank/back. Meanwhile, Kurepos can throw double the number of volleys at less damage, which in effect means doing way more than 5 casualties shooting from the back, i have got 30 or more. The Raskumenezai are also superior due to having more ammo and better quality, again the number of ammo makes a huge difference on how effective they are.
    I concede your point on morale, even if the difference between raskumenezai-kappodakiya is 1 point only.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    They're undisciplined precisely because they're nobles - each man thinks himself the master of the situation, he's not a lackey following the orders of his betters.
    Aren't units like Hetairoi also noblemen, shouldn't they be impetuous instead of disciplined too? Or any other noblemen like carthaginian heavy cavalry. Why are eastern/iranian nobility less disciplined than others?
    Last edited by Hellenikon; June 26, 2017 at 04:14 PM.

  17. #117

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Kappodakiya have faster horses (only slightly, but it's still faster) with a lower stat_heat, meaning they tire slower than the others. That morale difference matters even more now, since they're all varying from a smaller base than they were.

    Either way, it's to be expected that a formula might occasionally throw out edge cases where something is less efficient than another, but that isn't reason enough to make an exception. There are still situations where you won't have the option of choosing one of the three, or only one is available to you at the time.

    I haven't actually touched the disciplined/impetuous aspect of their morale, so I assumed there was a reason for it.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  18. #118

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Kappodakiya have faster horses (only slightly, but it's still faster) with a lower stat_heat, meaning they tire slower than the others. That morale difference matters even more now, since they're all varying from a smaller base than they were.

    Either way, it's to be expected that a formula might occasionally throw out edge cases where something is less efficient than another, but that isn't reason enough to make an exception. They have better equipment and are of higher status - that means they're more expensive. There are still situations where you won't have the option of choosing one of the three, or only one is available to you at the time.

    I haven't actually touched the disciplined/impetuous aspect of their morale, so I assumed there was a reason for it.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  19. #119
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Thank you for pointing this out! I was going to mention it in the "fan suggestions" thread but forgot to or never got around to it (I've been busy tackling the Aegean and the freaking eastern Mediterranean and Sicily for that matter with my preferred faction, the Koinon Hellenon).

    This thread is really bearing fruit. Thanks for creating it, Rad! IT'S SO GODDAMN RADICAL! IT'S SO RADICAL THAT IT HAS CONVERTED TO RADICAL ISLAM.

    Tubular, cool, bodacious, gnarly, out-of-sight Islam that is.

    My sides are in orbit. I wish this site would let me rep you again. Quick, someone else say something awesome!

    Free Kekistan

  20. #120

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hi, so I have a question about similar units in similar regions that have very different costs.

    Illyrian Thorakitai v Thracian Colonists

    Same defensive stats, ap swords (7 and 8 attack respectively), similar morale, Thracian is noticeably cheaper. I know that y'all price units based on a number of factors, but even reading the descriptions for the two units nothing is really popping out as to why there's a pricing difference. It seems to me like both the Illyrians and Thracians are both similarly warlike people who adopted Hellenic armaments. Also, it seems like the other Illyrian units are much more aggressively priced for their effectiveness (their peltasts are arguably the best levy skirmisher unit in Europe, their thureophoroi and hoplites make for fantastic light infantry, and their light cavalry are some of my favorite non-HA cav).

    I have similar complaints about Hyrcanian Hillmen and Tabargane Eranshar...

    Not here to whine, I know that y'all put a ton of thought and detail into why you stat and price units in a certain way, and I've been really excited to see all the changes to the units since EB1 (like how Gaesatoi are no longer little incredible hulks).

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