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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #61

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saithem View Post
    Are you sure it's not 9 for the aspis-wielding elites. At least that's the defensive skill of the Spartiatai Hoplitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai or Hypaspistai for example.
    So it is, you're right, I was misremembering.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  2. #62

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    why the hellcats and the hetairoi got the same charge value ? 21
    the hellcats are much more heavily armored and got a longer lance so it doesnt makes sense to me.
    meanwhile the parthians and the armenians got a charge value of 30
    even the Persian heavy cavalry and the Baktrian Medium Cavalry got a charge value of 28 even being less heavily armored than the Hellenic Cataphracts.

    The hellenic cataphracts got also a worse moral than the hetairoi and less stamina , they have little more defence and little more attack but that's about it , also their secondary weapon attack value is worse , i think their charge value should be buffed a little , to 28 for exemple if you want them worse than their armenians and parthians counterparts.
    i tested their charge on a unit of Pandotapoi and here the results (frontal charge):
    Hellenic Cataphracts : Charge , kills some 20 pandotapoi , fights a little , 4 hellenic cataphracts dies and the pandotapoi routs.
    Armenian and Parthians : Charge , Pandotapoi instantly rout , no casulaties for the cataphracts
    Baktrian / Persian heavy cavalry : loses 2 men then the pandotapoi routs
    the Hetairoi doctrine isint meant for frontal charges but i tried anyways : they lose like 8 men and the pandotapoi routs.

    any feedback on this ?

  3. #63

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Its normal that Heitaroi have the best stamina of all those. As they arent carring such a full cover armor and barding. They should be better for more mobility and repeated charges.

    Cataphracts are about armor and one big charge really. I dont know why hellenic ones dont have notably higher charge values either. Even if they werent the best among their type they were still cataphracts, very well equipped and given their scarcity you would guess the ones you get are the talented and well trained ones.
    Always shocked me a bit also their lower morale. I guess they might not be like the heitraoi that is like the elite troupe that makes the king's guard. But still seems weird for such a expensive unit to have meh morale.


    We will either find a way, or make one.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    my point exactly , also the historical records of their performance isin't awfull : at Panon , they routed the ptolies cavalry with easy then crashed into their rear winning the battle , at Magnesia , the Agema (under Antiochos the great they were trained and equiped like cataphracts ) and the others 3000 Cataphracts routed an entire legion and their allies with one charge , Antiochos could have won the battle but he chased like a retard again like raphia ...
    the point is , they should have a higher charge value ...

  5. #65

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hetairoi are elite, the best cavalrymen available to a Hellenistic faction, that's why their morale is higher than the Kataphraktoi (and swordsmanship is better). Their stamina is higher for a very simple reason - they have less armour.

    I'll have a look at the charge value, they have long lances like the other cataphracts. However, effectiveness of charge is also, because of the engine, impacted by movement speed. So Hetairoi, being faster, may sometimes pull off more effective charges even with lower charge values.

    The Kataphraktoi are not Agema (meaning elites again), so they're not comparable to Antiochos' Agema at Magnesia.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  6. #66

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thank you for taking my post into account , i only want a correct charge value for them , the swordsmanship , the moral and the stamina are correct and logical to me

  7. #67

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanavar View Post
    why the hellcats and the hetairoi got the same charge value ? 21
    the hellcats are much more heavily armored and got a longer lance so it doesnt makes sense to me.
    meanwhile the parthians and the armenians got a charge value of 30
    even the Persian heavy cavalry and the Baktrian Medium Cavalry got a charge value of 28 even being less heavily armored than the Hellenic Cataphracts.

    ...the Hetairoi doctrine isint meant for frontal charges but i tried anyways : they lose like 8 men and the pandotapoi routs.
    The cavalry charges are probably too high globally. The AI detects this and always goes for the frontal charge with its cavalry, usually with good effect. You can charge a unit of hoplites in guard mode, or any similar spear unit head-on, and the spearmen will take lots of casualties.

    It's kind of like vanilla M2TW, where you just charge, withdraw, and charge again with cavalry until the spear infantry rout.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thank you everyone, for keeping this thread alive and making improvements in the game.
    Can't play and test right now, too busy with rl.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thuycidides View Post
    The cavalry charges are probably too high globally. The AI detects this and always goes for the frontal charge with its cavalry, usually with good effect. You can charge a unit of hoplites in guard mode, or any similar spear unit head-on, and the spearmen will take lots of casualties.

    It's kind of like vanilla M2TW, where you just charge, withdraw, and charge again with cavalry until the spear infantry rout.
    As I understand it, in vanilla knights charge once and rout all before them. We're talking about the very heaviest cavalry available in the game here, and even they can't rout formed-up heavy infantry without multiple charges to the rear.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  10. #70

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Why do the Iranian Sparmen and the Armenian Spearmen have such high shield values? A bunch of levy units having shields that match the Cohors Reformata's shields?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    Why do the Iranian Sparmen and the Armenian Spearmen have such high shield values? A bunch of levy units having shields that match the Cohors Reformata's shields?
    Because they have huge shields. Though given the review of thureos/aspis recently to take into account thickness as well as coverage, they may need looking at again.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  12. #72

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Because they have huge shields. Though given the review of thureos/aspis recently to take into account thickness as well as coverage, they may need looking at again.
    How effective are the wicker shields in melee? I know how they are arrow resistant and maybe be able to resist blunt weapons but how effective are they against spears and swords?

  13. #73

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    As I understand it, in vanilla knights charge once and rout all before them. We're talking about the very heaviest cavalry available in the game here, and even they can't rout formed-up heavy infantry without multiple charges to the rear.
    The point is that it causes the AI to use stupid tactics. Whatever algorithm it's following gives the result that it's a good idea to charge spearmen head-on with cavalry.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    How effective are the wicker shields in melee? I know how they are arrow resistant and maybe be able to resist blunt weapons but how effective are they against spears and swords?
    i assume a few strikes would be enough to destroy one. this was actually one of the reasons that suggestion was made to reclassify the Armenian spearmen from "medium trained regulars" to "light irregulars". on the basis of the evidence we have, the gap could then be filled by introducing a medium-heavy aspis carrying regular spearmen that would also wear iron and bronze helmets.
    Last edited by Sarkiss; July 02, 2016 at 04:40 AM.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    After seeing the Bastarnai Draugai, depicted with a shield on their unit card with a zero for shield defense value, I went into a custom battle to check whether it was the picture or the stats that were in error. The answer is that their in-game models do not carry shields, but I decided to test their speed compared to other units while at it. The results were different from what you'd expect.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I placed all the units in a line at the frontmost edge of the deploy zone, facing towards the rear of the deployment zone, with gaps between the units so they wouldn't get tangled with each other while running. I then started the battle, selected all of them and gave them the order to run to a position near the rear edge of the map. I took the above screenshot once the first unit reached the target position.

    Going from top to bottom, the Akontistai were the first unit to reach the finish, as you might expect. After that, strangely, the Hoplitai are in the lead, with the lightly-equipped Doryphoroi Pontikoi only a sliver behind them.

    The Bastarnai Draugai are lagging significantly behind the three frontrunners, which seems like an error - they carry no shields or armor, merely javelins and a falx or some similar weapon, and are described on their unit card as "some of the fastest warriors among the Bastarnai", "trained since their youth to keep up with horses, even at full speed". Given their equipment and description, they should probably have skirmisher-like speed rather than lagging behind heavy infantry.

    The Peltastai Logades and the Thureophoroi are bringing up the rear. It seems strange that they are so much slower compared to hoplites. The Peltastai Logades carry a level of armor similar to the Hoplitai, but a much smaller shield, and the duties they are described as being suitable for include screening, skirmishing, flanking and rapid marches, which seems inconsistent with their slow movement speed. The Thureophoroi carry a lighter panoply compared to the Hoplitai, and are described as benefiting from a greater degree of flexibility on the battlefield in comparison; I don't see why their speed shouldn't at least equal that of the Hoplitai.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    That observation seems to completely ignore the actual speed of the units in the EDU; did they start their run by faffing around with their javelins first?
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  17. #77

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    After running the experiment several more times, I did not notice any funny business with javelins. The results were consistent between tests, other than the Doryphoroi possibly having a tendency to gain a sliver of a lead compared to the Hoplitai rather than the other way around.

    Although all units started moving at the same time, it did seem kind of like the speed advantage of the Hoplitai/Doryphoroi might have more to do with initial acceleration rather than maximum speed, with the other units eventually catching up in terms of acceleration so they could maintain their relative position, but they still weren't gaining on the Hoplitai to any noticeable extent.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-91 View Post
    Hi Rad. Do you think that phalanxes generaly are bit underpowered? I am aware of hammer and anvil tactics, and other supporting things. But i think they are bit too much underpowered. I did a lot of testing, im not saying this just like that. Still, i would like to hear your opinion. Others are also welcome to comment it.
    I've tested them on 2.2b VH BAI (regular phalangites vs polybian principes), I am satisfied with the results. Yes, they lack lethality, but damn, they can hold the line!
    That's exactly what I want from them. To pin the enemy in place, while a cavalry unit goes for the kill.
    They did suffer a lot from the pila voleys, but then again, who doesn't?
    Last edited by Rad; July 16, 2016 at 08:55 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    New patients

    Late Libyan Spearmen vs (unupgraded) Lybian Swordsmen.
    Same type of armor, same helmets, yet the Spearmen have an armor rating of 5, while the Swordsmen have an armor rating of 6. A +1 boost for the spearmen should do.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I've noticed the lougione Toutaginoi has a shield value of 8, is this intentional?

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