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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #41
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    No, a lot worse. Non refreshing numbers. After a pair of battles your FM is quite unprotected xD
    Thank you for pointing this out! I was going to mention it in the "fan suggestions" thread but forgot to or never got around to it (I've been busy tackling the Aegean and the freaking eastern Mediterranean and Sicily for that matter with my preferred faction, the Koinon Hellenon).

    This thread is really bearing fruit. Thanks for creating it, Rad! IT'S SO GODDAMN RADICAL! IT'S SO RADICAL THAT IT HAS CONVERTED TO RADICAL ISLAM.

    Tubular, cool, bodacious, gnarly, out-of-sight Islam that is.


  2. #42

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I was going to say something about not linking this thread to Radical Islam until I saw the picture hahahahaha xD
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I think this is the correct place for this:

    Komatai are trained vvhen I check it from the recruitment vievver, Komatai Epilektoi are untrained. Is this done on purpose to overcome some game mechanism? Does the training level affect the morale?

  4. #44

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    I think this is the correct place for this:

    Komatai are trained vvhen I check it from the recruitment vievver, Komatai Epilektoi are untrained. Is this done on purpose to overcome some game mechanism? Does the training level affect the morale?
    Even though it's listed under stat_mental, it's nothing to do with morale. It's about how "neat" their formation is. Untrained units are looser and more ragged in how they're distributed, trained and highly_trained are more orderly.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  5. #45

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-91 View Post
    Hi Rad. Do you think that phalanxes generaly are bit underpowered? I am aware of hammer and anvil tactics, and other supporting things. But i think they are bit too much underpowered. I did a lot of testing, im not saying this just like that. Still, i would like to hear your opinion. Others are also welcome to comment it.
    Its actually some kind of "Bug" you could say. They arent working properlly as they were before. We hope it will be fixed for 2.2b and they will recover their frontal power


    We will either find a way, or make one.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Then why are the Elite Dacian Skirmishers less orderly than Dacian Skirmishers? They have better armour and morale so shouldn't they fight more orderly so that they can fight melee longer?

  7. #47

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Then why are the Elite Dacian Skirmishers less orderly than Dacian Skirmishers? They have better armour and morale so shouldn't they fight more orderly so that they can fight melee longer?
    Looks like their stats are the wrong way around, reading their respective descriptions.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  8. #48

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Just noticed Seguorina has a defense skill of 3, can it be marked for change in the upcoming release if this isn't intended Quintus?

  9. #49

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Just noticed Seguorina has a defense skill of 3, can it be marked for change in the upcoming release if this isn't intended Quintus?
    Ooops, that should be 6. They've got the same defensive stats as Komnetsamoi, which isn't right.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  10. #50

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    While we are on stats, I have a lot of time these days, would gladly do the boring check stat work faction by faction if it can be of help.. You just need to explain me how the stats work. I guess I can't check the equipment based stats but can do the rest if they can be checked from the recruitment viewer..

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Ooops, that should be 6. They've got the same defensive stats as Komnetsamoi, which isn't right.
    If I were to want to correct that before starting a campaign, where would I find the files and what would I need to do? (currently looking through recruitment viewer to find a unit with the name, not familiar off the top of my head [edit: ah, google points to eb wiki points to pritanoi])

  12. #52

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    While we are on stats, I have a lot of time these days, would gladly do the boring check stat work faction by faction if it can be of help.. You just need to explain me how the stats work. I guess I can't check the equipment based stats but can do the rest if they can be checked from the recruitment viewer..
    Consistency is one of the primary aims of statting, it's essentially what I've been doing on them with Ibrahim since 2.01. The general rule is that stats should be roughly equivalent with other units of a similar role and status. So if they're using the same weapon, their attack should be the same as another unit of similar role/status using the same. Often it's better to find a comparable unit in another faction's roster - the aim is that equivalent units should be mostly similar, though mental stats are culture-based.

    Defensive skill for non-aspis-wielding infantry is 3 for levies/untrained, 6 for militia/semi-professional, 9 for professionals/veterans and 12 for elites. An exception is for swordsmen, who are assumed to need a more active style than spearmen, so they're usually a 9, unless they have a really big shield. For aspis-wielding infantry it's 3 for levies, 4-5 for militia/semi-professionals and 6 for professionals, with 12 for elites.

    For cavalry it's 3 for militia, 6 for horse-people/professionals and 9 for bodyguards/elites.

    Shields have changed for infantry recently, though it ranges from 1-4 for cavalry, and 2-9 for infantry, mostly due to size, with infantry getting doubled/more varied value compared to cavalry. This is because cavalry shields don't protect the horse, so there's always a vulnerable element compared to infantry. The recent changes is that that a full-sized aspis is now a 7 and the thureos is a 6 - they were the other way around. Reason for the change is that while the coverage of the latter is slightly more efficient (usually 1m high and 0.5m wide - covering a big chunk of the body) they're usually quite light and thin compared to the aspis (which is usually 0.7m to 0.85m in diameter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    If I were to want to correct that before starting a campaign, where would I find the files and what would I need to do? (currently looking through recruitment viewer to find a unit with the name, not familiar off the top of my head)
    Download Notepad++ (do not edit the files with Windows Notepad).

    Search the export_descr_units.txt for Seguorina. Find the stat_pri_armour line. Change 1, 3, 4 to 1, 6, 4.

    Delete your map.rwm and start a new campaign for it to take effect.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  13. #53
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thank you, sir!

  14. #54

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Is there any formula for charge bonus check/comparison?

  15. #55

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Is there any formula for charge bonus check/comparison?
    It varies quite a bit; there are more exceptions here. For cavalry lances it's either 10/21 or 10/28 for two-handed ones, depending on length. One-handed lances are usually 4/17 or 6/15 depending on how handy they are up close. Overhand spears are 8/11, underhand vary a bit depending on the unit. Swords are 10/5 for longswords and 9/5 for others, 7/4 (and ap) for choppers - though elites have higher numbers due to skill.

    For infantry generally charge value is half the attack value - though Celt semi-professionals and up (not Pritanoi) have doubled charge values.

    Again, check equivalent units in other rosters.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  16. #56

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Here is the first roster (Pritanoi) I finished checking/comparing. Tried to explain the changes I see fit the best I can..
    Didn't touch the morale though, I'm not sure if I can reason that out other than comparing but that'd be fishy I think..

    ***Pritanoi Roster Offers


    Seguorina

    offer: defense skill from 3 to 6 (as already been discussed)

    Komnetsamoi

    offer: charge bonus from 17 to 5
    shield armor from 4 to 3
    melee attack from 2 to 3

    Komnetsamoi should have the same charge value as Londo Epatoi. Their second weapon looks the very same as londo epatoi too , should have the same attack damage which is 3.
    The biggest shield armor for cavalry is 4 like in theuros shield cavalry (Kurepos,Donno Eporedo etc) which is equal in stat to the big Pritanoi shield cavalry (Seguorina, Markakoi). Komnetsamoi clearly have a smaller version of Pritanoi big shield. Making this change will put their shield stat similar to Mezenai, Ridanz who have more or less similar shield.


    Magones

    offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
    shield armor from 4 to 2

    They are good warriors, they are probably more skilled than Mezenai, Kantabrae Ekuoreda, Ridanz but then they also have a smaller shield so giving them a defense skill of 6 considering their higher skill (9 level) worse shield seems appropriate.
    4 is the cavalry shield armor for the biggest, best shields like the shield of Seguorina or the theuros shield of Donno Eporedoi, 3 is for the shields of Mezenai, Aswiniai, Prasadhara Asvanika, Magones should be one less on par with Sakaya Ashwabara, Parasim Garamantim shield armor values.


    Markakoi

    offer: defense skill from 6 to 9

    elite cavalry, should have elite heavy cavalry defense skill same as Donno Eporedoi


    Gaisokrotiatoi

    offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

    they should have same value as similar shield units like Slaganz, Perkwunas


    Eqoreda

    offer: defense skill from 2 to 6

    these are named nobles but then their training level and probably also the battle experience should not be on par with real elite cavalry like Donno or Markakoi so they should have a defense skill of 6 rather than 9. not 2 though..


    Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi


    offer: training level from untrained to highly_trained or trained

    I don't know what training level exactly represents but these are the chosen folk, foot versions of seguorina but then maybe they are trained less because of class issues so they can be trained rather than highly trained


    ***Some independent offers I wanted in before I come to their spesific rosters:

    Gargokladioi
    offer: Gargokladioi charge bonus from 5 to 10
    Gargokladioi defense skill from 6 to 9
    idea: batoroi vs gargokladioi
    these are east celtic swordsman and west celtic swordsman right? western one being a bit better equipped. other the armor difference their stats should be the same no?


    Basternai Draugai

    offer: shield armor from 0 to 5 or 6

    0 is obviously a mistake but i'm not sure if their shields are as good as theuros shields hence 5 or 6


    Basternai Markaridai

    offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

    their shield seems big and enforced enough but I if it's of less quality then theuros I guess it should stay 3

    If these changes are in overall sound, will move to another roster to continue
    Last edited by Barnabas; June 27, 2016 at 06:25 AM. Reason: layout

  17. #57

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Here is the first roster (Pritanoi) I finished checking/comparing. Tried to explain the changes I see fit the best I can..
    Didn't touch the morale though, I'm not sure if I can reason that out other than comparing but that'd be fishy I think..
    Really appreciate you doing this, it's always good to have another set of eyes on the units, especially if Ibrahim and I have missed something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    ***Pritanoi Roster Offers


    Seguorina

    offer: defense skill from 3 to 6 (as already been discussed)

    Komnetsamoi

    offer: charge bonus from 17 to 5
    shield armor from 4 to 3
    melee attack from 2 to 3

    Komnetsamoi should have the same charge value as Londo Epatoi. Their second weapon looks the very same as londo epatoi too , should have the same attack damage which is 3.
    The biggest shield armor for cavalry is 4 like in theuros shield cavalry (Kurepos,Donno Eporedo etc) which is equal in stat to the big Pritanoi shield cavalry (Seguorina, Markakoi). Komnetsamoi clearly have a smaller version of Pritanoi big shield. Making this change will put their shield stat similar to Mezenai, Ridanz who have more or less similar shield.
    I've just had a look at these two in-game (there weren't any post-completion screenshots in the concepting forum), and as far as I can see, both use the same overhand spears as secondary weapons as Celtic cavalry. I've queried that with Ibrahim, because I can't see why their secondary weapon is statted as a (short) lance.

    Agree on the shields for the tribesmen, smaller than the other unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Magones

    offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
    shield armor from 4 to 2

    They are good warriors, they are probably more skilled than Mezenai, Kantabrae Ekuoreda, Ridanz but then they also have a smaller shield so giving them a defense skill of 6 considering their higher skill (9 level) worse shield seems appropriate.
    4 is the cavalry shield armor for the biggest, best shields like the shield of Seguorina or the theuros shield of Donno Eporedoi, 3 is for the shields of Mezenai, Aswiniai, Prasadhara Asvanika, Magones should be one less on par with Sakaya Ashwabara, Parasim Garamantim shield armor values.
    That defensive skill of 2 is wrong, we don't even use that for cavalry, it's 3 or 6 for the most part.

    Agree on the shield size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Markakoi

    offer: defense skill from 6 to 9

    elite cavalry, should have elite heavy cavalry defense skill same as Donno Eporedoi
    Donno Eporedoi have a 6 - only FM bodyguard cavalry, and a handful of elite exceptions have 9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Gaisokrotiatoi

    offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

    they should have same value as similar shield units like Slaganz, Perkwunas
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Eqoreda

    offer: defense skill from 2 to 6

    these are named nobles but then their training level and probably also the battle experience should not be on par with real elite cavalry like Donno or Markakoi so they should have a defense skill of 6 rather than 9. not 2 though..
    Another mistake, they should have a defensive skill of 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi


    offer: training level from untrained to highly_trained or trained

    I don't know what training level exactly represents but these are the chosen folk, foot versions of seguorina but then maybe they are trained less because of class issues so they can be trained rather than highly trained
    It represents "neatness" of their formations. The Pritanoi are more individualistic even than the Celts, so it makes sense for them not to have neatly serried ranks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    ***Some independent offers I wanted in before I come to their spesific rosters:

    Gargokladioi
    offer: Gargokladioi charge bonus from 5 to 10
    Gargokladioi defense skill from 6 to 9
    idea: batoroi vs gargokladioi
    these are east celtic swordsman and west celtic swordsman right? western one being a bit better equipped. other the armor difference their stats should be the same no?
    They're not equivalent to Batoroi - that's why they're so much cheaper. The eastern equivalent to Batoroi are the Uextias. Talking of whom, they're costed wrong, they're higher status/training than Gargokladoi, even if they have no equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Basternai Draugai

    offer: shield armor from 0 to 5 or 6

    0 is obviously a mistake but i'm not sure if their shields are as good as theuros shields hence 5 or 6
    They don't have shields, I just checked them. Javelins and a two-handed weapon. Are you sure we're talking about the same unit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Basternai Markaridai

    offer: shield armor from 3 to 4

    their shield seems big and enforced enough but I if it's of less quality then theuros I guess it should stay 3

    If these changes are in overall sound, will move to another roster to continue
    Agreed, those are big.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  18. #58

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Haha glad to be of help.. I will post when I finish my next roster check.

    I've used extensively the recruitment viewer doing this check assuming it displayed correct other than checking the second weapons of two aforementioned celtic cavalry. However, Basternai Draugai are depicted with a big theuros like shield.. I got surprised when you said they don't have shield.. Maybe the pic is something like a placeholder for the same unit leftover from a previous version?

    Something is bothering me about Pritanoi. Do they experience the riders reform along the same dates as their cousin factions? If that's the case, I assume to make them exempt from because they don't get to recruit their heavy cavalry and chariots until their kingdom which for a standart non-blitzing play should be experienced so much later then the riders reform..
    Last edited by Barnabas; June 27, 2016 at 10:11 AM. Reason: missing text

  19. #59

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Haha glad to be of help.. I will post when I finish my next roster check.

    I've used extensively the recruitment viewer doing this check assuming it displayed correct other than checking the second weapons of two aforementioned celtic cavalry. However, Basternai Draugai are depicted with a big theuros like shield.. I got surprised when you said they don't have shield.. Maybe the pic is something like a placeholder for the same unit leftover from a previous version?.
    Don't assume the info card (which is what the RV reads) is correct. I checked those units in-game to verify their equipment, the Basternai infantry are shieldless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Something is bothering me about Pritanoi. Do they experience the riders reform along the same dates as their cousin factions? If that's the case, I assume to make them exempt from because they don't get to recruit their heavy cavalry and chariots until their kingdom which for a standart non-blitzing play should be experienced so much later then the riders reform..
    They're not Celts, they don't get the Celtic reforms. So they'll retain chariots for the remainder of the game.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  20. #60

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    For aspis-wielding infantry it's 3 for levies, 4-5 for militia/semi-professionals and 6 for professionals, with 12 for elites.
    Are you sure it's not 9 for the aspis-wielding elites. At least that's the defensive skill of the Spartiatai Hoplitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai or Hypaspistai for example.

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