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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #381

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Why is machimoi attack so low by the way? I understand they arent the skilled warrior class they used to be, but right now their attack is knife level, despite they seem more akin to hoplitai haploi, in equipment at least. Almost any levy spear has at least 4 in attack. 2 is usually reserved for troops that arent meant for melee engagement.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  2. #382
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Why is machimoi attack so low by the way? I understand they arent the skilled warrior class they used to be, but right now their attack is knife level, despite they seem more akin to hoplitai haploi, in equipment at least. Almost any levy spear has at least 4 in attack. 2 is usually reserved for troops that arent meant for melee engagement.
    They've already been changed to semi-professionals since 2.35 released. Their new attack stat is 4/3, defensive skill goes up to 6, and they now cost 820.

  3. #383

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Seems fitting, nice!

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  4. #384

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Interesting subject... are there any plans to upgrade any of the Machimoi units as time progresses? They must have been influenced by hellenistic martial traditions, at least to some degree.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  5. #385
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Interesting subject... are there any plans to upgrade any of the Machimoi units as time progresses? They must have been influenced by hellenistic martial traditions, at least to some degree.
    No, they are partially replaced by other units in their pools.

  6. #386
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Each time I see such a reasonable fine-tunning, I wonder why the hell we don't have a good team working on a Medieval 2 mod for the Middle Ages that would resemble EBII in historical quality. There're many modders in the past, there're a few teams, but at the end they would either split or cease to exist. And there're modders who prefered to do everything on their own (hey, it so easy when you don't need to negotiate the details with the others - everything is just fit for you wish, you don't need to convince anybody, nor to back you choices with arguments, nor describe what you'd done). The result is: no finished, fully-fledged historical mod.

  7. #387

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Being partially replaced means that some of them remain in service. An upgrade would be useful in order to keep up with the rest of the fighting forces. Keep the idea in mind.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  8. #388
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Being partially replaced means that some of them remain in service. An upgrade would be useful in order to keep up with the rest of the fighting forces. Keep the idea in mind.
    They don't need to "keep up" with anyone, the partial replacement already encapsulates the entirety of the shift. They were still employed primarily for internal security and other domestic duties.

  9. #389
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Being partially replaced means that some of them remain in service. An upgrade would be useful in order to keep up with the rest of the fighting forces. Keep the idea in mind.
    They don't need to "keep up" with anyone, the partial replacement already encapsulates the entirety of the shift. They were still employed primarily for internal security and other domestic duties.

  10. #390

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    OK
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  11. #391

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Velites vs Lybian skirmishers.

    This observation has more to do with recruitment cost and upkeep.

    I'm just gonna copy the units stats here and say what I think.

    Velites
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ; COMMENTS Velites (Polybian Skirmishers) / Unit ID 185 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,03456 / Pool cap: 8
    type roman infantry velites
    dictionary roman_infantry_velites
    category infantry
    class skirmish
    voice_type General
    accent Roman_Latin
    banner faction main_missile
    banner holy crusade
    soldier velites, 64, 0, 0.8, 0.3
    officer officer_roman_camillan
    officer officer_roman_hastati_sb
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, is_peasant, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.2
    formation 0.9, 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 16, 0, akon, 70, 6, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 9, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 3, 6, 4, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 1, 0, 3, -4
    stat_mental 3, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 22
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 680, 127, 34, 68, 680, 12, 127
    stat_stl 8
    armour_ug_levels 0
    armour_ug_models velites
    ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_belgai
    ;era 0 f_rome
    era 1 f_rome
    ;era 2 f_rome
    info_pic_dir f_all
    card_pic_dir f_all
    recruit_priority_offset -20


    Libyan skirmishers
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ; COMMENTS Mashlihei-Hanitim Lubiyim (Libyan Skirmishers) / Unit ID 222 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,0288 / Pool cap: 8
    type carthaginian infantry libyan lonchophoroi
    dictionary carthaginian_infantry_libyan_lonchophoroi
    category infantry
    class skirmish
    voice_type General
    accent Punic
    banner faction main_missile
    banner holy crusade
    soldier libyan_skirmishers, 64, 0, 0.8, 0.35
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, is_peasant, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.3
    formation 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 13, 0, akon, 70, 5, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 5, leather
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 1, 0, 1, -4
    stat_mental 2, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 22
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 600, 112, 30, 60, 600, 8, 112
    stat_stl 10
    armour_ug_levels 0, 2
    armour_ug_models libyan_skirmishers, libyan_skirmishers_late
    ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_belgai
    era 0 f_carthage
    era 1 f_carthage, f_numidia, f_ptolemaioi
    era 2 f_rome, f_carthage, f_numidia, f_ptolemaioi
    info_pic_dir f_all
    card_pic_dir f_all
    recruit_priority_offset -20


    The velites have more lethal missiles, more ammo, better melee skills, 2 extra armor points (at least initially), 1 extra morale point and they are more disciplined.

    Velites cost 680 mnai to recruit and their upkeep is 127 mnai.
    Libyan skirmishers cost 600 mnai to recruit and their upkeep is 112 mnai.

    Maybe up the recruitment and upkeep cost for the Velites, considering their advantages?
    I know it's a fine tunning thing. I only noticed it because I constantly pit those two against each other in my mind.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  12. #392

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Velites are underpriced. Were they buffed recently? They're better and cheaper than Euzonoi for example, at current status they're mid-level skirmisher/light infantry almost at the level of Promachoi or Leginu. They should be priced around 900....

  13. #393

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Velites are insanely cheap for the quality service they offer
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  14. #394

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Not necessarily something that requires changes, but I am interested.

    Libyan skirmishers vs Maures infantry

    Libyans
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ; COMMENTS Mashlihei-Hanitim Lubiyim (Libyan Skirmishers) / Unit ID 222 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,0288 / Pool cap: 8
    type carthaginian infantry libyan lonchophoroi
    dictionary carthaginian_infantry_libyan_lonchophoroi
    category infantry
    class skirmish
    voice_type General
    accent Punic
    banner faction main_missile
    banner holy crusade
    soldier libyan_skirmishers, 64, 0, 0.8, 0.35
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, is_peasant, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.3
    formation 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 13, 0, akon, 70, 5, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 8, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 5, leather
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 1, 0, 1, -4
    stat_mental 2, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 22
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 600, 112, 30, 60, 600, 8, 112
    stat_stl 10
    armour_ug_levels 0, 2
    armour_ug_models libyan_skirmishers, libyan_skirmishers_late
    ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_belgai
    era 0 f_carthage
    era 1 f_carthage, f_numidia, f_ptolemaioi
    era 2 f_rome, f_carthage, f_numidia, f_ptolemaioi
    info_pic_dir f_all
    card_pic_dir f_all
    recruit_priority_offset -20


    Maures infantry
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ; COMMENTS Dorekim Maurim (Maures Infantry) / Unit ID 234 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,0288 / Pool cap: 8
    type african infantry maures
    dictionary african_infantry_maures
    category infantry
    class skirmish
    voice_type General
    accent Punic
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier maures_infantry, 64, 0, 0.8, 0.3
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, is_peasant, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.2
    formation 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 4, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 13, 0, akon, 70, 5, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 9, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 2, 3, 5, leather
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 1, 3, 3, -2
    stat_mental 2, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 22
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 640, 120, 32, 64, 640, 8, 120
    stat_stl 11
    armour_ug_levels 0
    armour_ug_models maures_infantry
    ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_belgai
    era 0 f_numidia
    era 1 f_carthage, f_numidia
    era 2 f_carthage, f_numidia
    info_pic_dir f_all
    card_pic_dir f_all
    recruit_priority_offset -10


    The Maures have a higher melee attack rating, but lower defense rating. Why is that? I must mention that I feel that the Libyans do in fact deserve their current defense rating.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  15. #395
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Maures have longer swords.

  16. #396

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Thanks for the explanation!
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  17. #397

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I have a question regarding infantry charges after seeing the discussion that took place before in this thread about their effectivity despite the varying values.

    The thing for me is that infantry charges have always felt uneffective because they just arent well performed no matter the conditions. I dont know if I do something wrong but sometimes the units dont even charge after launching the precursor, just walking up. But even when they happen and even with perfectly formed up units that have walked in tight formation to the appropaite distance they seem actually counterproductive. Only a very small fraction (the first line or a bit more) of the unit charges, which makes the impact quite small and makes the unit loss cohesion that takes quite a while to recover. This leaves it vulnerable and the unit is spread out and disorganised as it tries to reorganise with the rest slowly walking up to the enemy often not as a whole, and speacially for the ones who performed the charge, as they fight outnumbered for a while more often than not even if they were the ones flaking.
    Last edited by Jervaj; April 09, 2019 at 01:39 PM.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  18. #398

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Does anyone think that the Umbro-Picenian warriors i.e. Leginu have a higher armor rating than they should have? Their armor rating is 6.

    They all wear helmets.
    Two wear tunics, one wears a round cardiophylax over a subarmalis, one wears a round cardiophylax and one wears a linothorax.
    Some wear greaves, some don't.

    I'm trying to find a unit to compare them to. Maybe the Sabellian spearmen? Their armor rating is 5.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  19. #399

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Does anyone think that the Umbro-Picenian warriors i.e. Leginu have a higher armor rating than they should have? Their armor rating is 6.

    They all wear helmets.
    Two wear tunics, one wears a round cardiophylax over a subarmalis, one wears a round cardiophylax and one wears a linothorax.
    Some wear greaves, some don't.

    I'm trying to find a unit to compare them to. Maybe the Sabellian spearmen? Their armor rating is 5.
    I agree though Im not an expert. But usually untis with 6-7 armour are already those where everyone has some kind of armor. Myabe the quality of the armor of those who have it justifies an higher overall score even if its a bit sparse.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  20. #400
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Agreed, I'll knock the Umbro-Picenians down a point.

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