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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #181

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Maure infantry - shield rating of 7 - too high?

  2. #182

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hastati Sabelli - nothing wrong with the stats as far as I can tell, but they seem to loose men droves. They are always one of the units with the highest casualties, especially against ranged attacks. Once lost around 60 under fire from two units of skirmisher cavalry from the front. Something wrong with them or just selective perception?

  3. #183

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Question about the Caucusus Axeman (not at a comp rigt now to get their real name).

    I've noticed they have a REALLY high armor value (8 i believe) which is on par with some factions' heavily armored elites.

    Is this correct? They don't look heavily armored from a visual standpoint, and it didn't seem like they were from reading the description.

    They also have a missile attack value of 22 I believe (with javelins). Do they use some special type of javelin to justify this?

    If the stats are legit (totally could be, im no expert) then please feel free to correct me here, but from my 2nd hand knowledge limited to what im reading in EB 2, the armor value (and to a lesser extent the missile attack value) seems a little excessive.

  4. #184

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    If you mean the unpronounceable Circassians, they have heavy armour - mail, thorakes and scale. And their missile is a particular kind of barbed heavy javelin.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  5. #185

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    If you mean the unpronounceable Circassians, they have heavy armour - mail, thorakes and scale. And their missile is a particular kind of barbed heavy javelin.
    Phaezaeghashka Actually managed to pronounce that after a few attempts. Still not sure what language it's from - Circassian or one of its forerunners? Anyway, I take it they represent the local nobles/elites, right?
    BTW, are the Maiotian unit names from the same language?

  6. #186

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    @Quintus Thanks for clarifying on the axemen (I was indeed referring to the unpronounceable guys). Their stats now make sense to me. Awesome unit indeed!

  7. #187

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Towered forest elephants.

    They are significantly more expensive than untowered elephants, but looking at their stats the only benefit seems to be the archery crew on their back.

    I checked their stats and that seems to be the only difference. Am I missing something? Thanks.

  8. #188

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Lakedaimonian hoplites vs Libyan hoplites
    Lak:
    Attack 8
    Charge 4
    Armor 4
    Defense 5
    Shield 6
    Good stamina
    Price 1250

    Lib:
    Attack 7
    Charge 4
    Armor 4 (visually a bit less armored than the Laks, but it doesn't merit a change)
    Defense 6
    Shield 6
    Good stamina
    Price 990

    1. Why do the Lakedaimonian hoplites have a worse defense rating than the Libyans? Both units are light hoplites, and seem to be around semi-professional level. Even though Spartans (and others who lived in or around and fought for Sparta) aren't the invincible killing machines they and the modern movie industry would like us believe, they're still Greeks. They should be better at Hoplite warfare than Lybians, right?

    2. Price. Why are the Lakedaimonian almost 30% more expensive? The visible stats are similar enough, the Laks have a point more in morale and have a tidier formation. What am I missing?

  9. #189

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krampus View Post
    Towered forest elephants.

    They are significantly more expensive than untowered elephants, but looking at their stats the only benefit seems to be the archery crew on their back.

    I checked their stats and that seems to be the only difference. Am I missing something? Thanks.
    There should be a greater morale/training distinction between them - the untowered sort have lower morale, but they should also have low discipline, not normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Lakedaimonian hoplites vs Libyan hoplites
    Lak:
    Attack 8
    Charge 4
    Armor 4
    Defense 5
    Shield 6
    Good stamina
    Price 1250

    Lib:
    Attack 7
    Charge 4
    Armor 4 (visually a bit less armored than the Laks, but it doesn't merit a change)
    Defense 6
    Shield 6
    Good stamina
    Price 990

    1. Why do the Lakedaimonian hoplites have a worse defense rating than the Libyans? Both units are light hoplites, and seem to be around semi-professional level. Even though Spartans (and others who lived in or around and fought for Sparta) aren't the invincible killing machines they and the modern movie industry would like us believe, they're still Greeks. They should be better at Hoplite warfare than Lybians, right?

    2. Price. Why are the Lakedaimonian almost 30% more expensive? The visible stats are similar enough, the Laks have a point more in morale and have a tidier formation. What am I missing?
    The Lakonikoi should have a 6 defense (and possibly the Libyans should have a 5). But you've left out the signifier of status - the Libyans are semi-professionals, which is why their charge distance is 17 and their morale is 5/trained. The Lakonikoi have a professional 14 and 6/highly_trained. Different multiplier for different status.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  10. #190

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Ignore!
    Last edited by Raiuga; November 12, 2017 at 07:55 AM.

  11. #191

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I mentioned the extra point of morale, and the tidier formation - i.e. higher training.
    Training determines how tidy the unit's formation is: untrained, trained, highly_trained.
    I considered the Laks at the higher end of semi-professional, edging towards professional. Are they professional soldiers like the Spartiates?

    What I wasn't aware is the factor that charge distance plays. What does a smaller charge distance do?
    Last edited by Rad; November 12, 2017 at 08:04 AM.

  12. #192

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I mentioned the extra point of morale, and the tidier formation - i.e. higher training.
    Training determines how tidy the unit's formation is: untrained, trained, highly_trained.
    I considered the Laks at the higher end of semi-professional, edging towards professional. Are they professional soldiers like the Spartiates?

    What I wasn't aware is the factor that charge distance plays. What does a smaller charge distance do?
    They're professional, but not elite like the Spartiatai.

    Levies have a charge distance of 22, semi-professionals 17, professionals and better 14. It impacts how far they need to charge and has some impact on cohesion when they do.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  13. #193

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Does horse protection influence the armor rating of cavalry?

  14. #194

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiuga View Post
    Does horse protection influence the armor rating of cavalry?
    Yes, but it's an average of horse and man, not a simple addition.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  15. #195

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Yes, but it's an average of horse and man, not a simple addition.
    Ok, thank you. This will be maybe an hard one to prove, It can be a question of rounding values but:

    Kleruch Settler Guard Cavalry, armor rating: 6 (Placeholder?)
    - All helmets; - Two breastplates models, Two linothorax models; Some double leg guards.

    Lydian Lancers, armor rating: 5 (Placeholder?)
    - All helmets; - Two breastplates models, Two linothorax models; - Some double leg guards; - no horse protection

    Molosson Agema, armor rating: 5
    - All helmets; - Two breastplates models, Two linothorax models; - Some double leg guards; - no horse protection

    Hetairoi, armor rating: 7
    - All helmets; - Three breastplates models; - no leg guards; - some horse protection

    Carthaginian Elite Cavalry, armor rating: 6
    - All helmets; - Two breastplates models, one linothorax model, one italian breastplate; - All double leg guards; - some horse protection, same has hetairoi

    So, the first three all have the same type of model so Kleruch should have a -1 in armor rating, even if they are still a placeholder.
    My second point is up to interpretation but it seems, visually, that carthage's elite cav should have more than +1 armor rating compared to the first three units, maybe its a borderline value of 7. I know it's hard to make all things uniform, we good either way.

  16. #196

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    All those elite lancers should be the same; I'll go with 5 for now. Carthaginian Elite should be equivalent to the Hetairoi, so they go up to 7.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  17. #197

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Any reason Bosphoran archers can't skirmish? Is that an oversight or by design?

  18. #198

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haze88 View Post
    Any reason Bosphoran archers can't skirmish? Is that an oversight or by design?
    You mean Thureopherontes Toxotai? Those guys are tough enough to hold the enemy until reinforcements come, that might be why. On occassions, I've used them as flankers after they ran out of arrows, they can chop through lighter infantry wih ease.

  19. #199

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I may have mentioned this one before - British retainer spearment - they have an undeserved armor rating of 3. It should be 1, at best.

  20. #200

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Some questions:

    - Indohellenic lancers still have the AP attribute on their lances.
    - What does the "knight" attribute do and why do Armenian cataphracts have it, but not Parthian and Saka ones? Not saying there were an observable imbalance there, just curious about the discrepancy.

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