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Thread: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

  1. #321

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hey fam,

    Been a while since I played but I'm really happy to see all the incredible work that was put into 2.35 across the board! Including the speed bump to the Illyrian Phalanx

    One thing I noticed that seemed unusual was the massive +5 armor bonus to (a) nearly all bataroi equivalent celtic swordsmen during the 1st reforms, (b) all celtic and galatian retainer units (infantry and cav) during the 2nd reforms. Last patch, the bataroi units only gained +1 armor during 1st reforms, and retainer units gained +2 during 2nd reforms.
    I guess I have a few questions:
    - What justified the +5 bump?
    - If it's because of the proliferation of chainmail, why don't galatian colonists get it? Or cisalpine swordsmen? And why do bataroi get it now that their reform models only get linen as opposed to chainmail (per the patch notes)?
    - Isn't it kind of unbalanced? Wouldn't it have made more sense to just create new units with greater costs available during these period? I mean, the costs of equipping entire units of professional and retainer soldiers with that much mail would surely justify raising their price to thorakitai levels.

    Personally, bataroi have been my favorite units in the game ever since EBI, so I'm not really complaining. Might do another Boii game for more ahistoric bataroi spamming <3.

  2. #322

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    There shouldn't be a +5 bump, it should be +2.5 as is the standard amount for a single upgrade.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  3. #323

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Ok, because this is what I see in the EDU right now:

    ; COMMENTS Batoroi (Gallic Swordsmen) / Unit ID 11 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,0576 / Pool cap: 5
    type celtic infantry gallic swordsman
    dictionary celtic_infantry_gallic_swordsman
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Gallic
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier gallic_batoroi_early, 64, 0, 1, 0.3
    officer officer_celtic_carnyx
    officer officer_celtic_gallic
    officer officer_celtic_standardbearer_early
    attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish
    move_speed_mod 0.83
    formation 0.9, 0.9, 1.8, 1.8, 4, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 7, 0, javelin, 60, 2, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr prec
    stat_sec 10, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 3, 9, 5, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 3
    stat_ground -1, -4, -1, -4
    stat_mental 6, disciplined, trained
    stat_charge_dist 14
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 1230, 231, 61, 123, 1230, 6, 231
    stat_stl 7
    armour_ug_levels 0, 5
    armour_ug_models gallic_batoroi_early, gallic_batoroi_middle
    ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_belgai
    era 0 f_aedui, f_arverni
    era 1 f_aedui, f_arverni
    era 2 f_aedui, f_arverni
    info_pic_dir f_all
    card_pic_dir f_all
    recruit_priority_offset 43

    Should the armour_ug_levels instead be:

    armour_ug_levels 0, 2.5

    ?

  4. #324

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    No, that's not how it works. The number signify when they trigger, not the amount they add. So that triggers with the fifth upgrade slot, adding one upgrade's worth (+2.5 armour).
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  5. #325

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    No, that's not how it works. The number signify when they trigger, not the amount they add. So that triggers with the fifth upgrade slot, adding one upgrade's worth (+2.5 armour).
    Ah, ok, I see. Cross referenced with the numbered reforms list in the EDB. That makes much more sense. Thanks!

  6. #326

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I have to do the following, even if it brands me as a fanboy and an enemy of the people:

    Spartan hoplites vs Pontic heavy hoplites
    ____________________________________

    1. Unit size is the same - I have nothing to say about that.

    2. Formation, discipline, attack and defense skill is equal. However, the Pontic heavy hoplites have one extra morale point and they have the Command trait - For folks like myself, folks who only have a general understanding of hellenistic armies, this strikes me as odd. Were the Pontikoi truly equally capable, but braver and more inspiring soldiers?

    3. The armor rating of the two units is equal - This is what I can clearly perceive as being incorrect.

    a. Both units are fully helmeted.
    b. The Spartans wear a mix of bronze and iron muscled cuirass/metal thorax/reinforced linothorax, while the Pontikoi wear a mix of scale and reinforced linothorax. Spartans have the advantage here.
    c. All Spartans wear greaves, while most Pontikoi wear greaves. Slight advantage for the Spartans here.

    4. Recruitment and upkeep are the same.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  7. #327

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    That might be an argument for increasing the armour value and cost of the Spartiatai (or possibly reducing the armour and cost of the Pontikoi). But they're not Epilektoi-equivalents, which is what the Pontikoi are.

    These Spartans are much diminished from their zenith, and draw from a smaller pool of talent than the Pontikoi do.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  8. #328

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    If the Spartans are not true elites in the sense of the game, I would like to argue that their unit should be increased to regular size while retaining their current stats - with the possible adjustment of armor rating. They're already rare enough as it is - 1 company, recruitable from only one place, every 25 turns.
    Last edited by Rad; February 09, 2019 at 07:21 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  9. #329

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    If the Spartans are not true elites in the sense of the game, I would like to argue that their unit should be increased to regular size while retaining their current stats - with the possible adjustment of armor rating. They're already rare enough as it is - 1 company, recruitable from only one place, every 25 turns.
    They're drawing from a relatively small group of people and are an elite; they're just no longer the best. Once again, the Spartans are past their prime.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  10. #330

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Even though I don't agree with it, I can see the reasoning behind the current state. Now, where can I read up on those fearsome Pontic hoplites? Their PR sucks, I barely knew about them prior to the unit.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  11. #331

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I addressed this in my game by reducing the stat_heat fo the spartiatai by 1, thus indirectly increasing their stamina in most climates - this helps make them more effective. However i am unsure whenever the spartiatai should remain as they are, a sort of early era gap between professional and elites, or represent truly the elite of the polis of sparta, being a local variation of epilektoi hoplitai (replacing those).

  12. #332
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Guys, what do you think about the impact of the "charge" statistics on the battles?
    To my mind, due to the prolonged fighting in EBII the charge value has very little impact on the game. The number of losses inflicted during a charge is small and the fighting value of a unit depends on the attack and defense (plus obviously morale, but this is a different issue for discussion).
    Obviously, for cavalry it's a bit different as it conducts many charges in the battle.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; February 11, 2019 at 08:39 AM.

  13. #333

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    I don't even notice infantry charges. Even barbarian units don't pack a punch.

    Lancer cavalry is entirely different beast, though. I once had the dubious pleasure of seeing an enemy unit of Kataphraktoi rear/flank charge my Peltastai Makedones. Instant 65% casualties.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  14. #334
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Hi Rad,
    have a look at this unit:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    don't you think that's overpriced as compared to, say, Arioi? I think it may indeed come from putting to much weight on the charge stat.

    (I've got a table with Pritanoi units, easy to compare):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  15. #335

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Difficult to say.

    They are a full sized unit, with good armor/defense/shield, good morale, good stamina, command trait and two armor upgrades. It pays to have one or two, especially if the rest of the army is not so valorous.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  16. #336

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Arioi are an elite-sized unit, number of men is a pretty powerful factor in the calculation.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  17. #337
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Arioi are an elite-sized unit, number of men is a pretty powerful factor in the calculation.
    Yeah, I understand but then compare it to the Bataroi who are of the same size. The superiority of the Nedes is in the charge and morale, the stats that are lesser importance in practice than on paper. In the EBII fighting-style (slow rate of killing, compressed morale values with numerous bonuses to morale from the generals' attributes) the two most important stats for heavy infantry are attack and defense - and they're latter in the second while inferior in the former.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; February 13, 2019 at 12:43 AM.

  18. #338

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yeah, I understand but then compare it to the Bataroi who are of the same size. The superiority of the Nedes is in the charge and morale, the stats that are lesser importance in practice than on paper. In the EBII fighting-style (slow rate of killing, compressed morale values with numerous bonuses to morale from the generals' attributes) the two most important stats for heavy infantry are attack and defense - and they're latter in the second while inferior in the former.
    You overlook one thing...Nedes, despite the wrong picture, are spearmen. Their job is to hold the line, and Nedes do it really well, especially since they boost morale of nearby units, so even lesser troops can hold the line.

    I have more experience with their Galatian version in Pontic campaign, and they're really worth the money when used alongside the pantadapoi phalangitai.

  19. #339
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    You overlook one thing...Nedes, despite the wrong picture, are spearmen. Their job is to hold the line, and Nedes do it really well, especially since they boost morale of nearby units, so even lesser troops can hold the line.
    I've discerned noted they're spearmen (see here ;-), but you're right, that's a worthy argument.
    So: what is actually this morale boost? +1 morale or in %%?

  20. #340

    Default Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.

    The Retainers are veterans, that's why they have higher morale and the command attribute; status is another multiplier. You're comparing two completely different grades of unit.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


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