Greek government finally deals with the important stuff: homeopathy

[Garbarsardar]

Ministry of Health
Subject:
Formation and membership of a working group that will delineate the parameters of making homeopathy an official medical practice

The Greek Government in its infinite wisdom decided to form a committee with the stated task of legitimising homeopathy as medical practice.

I have no words for the stupidity of such decision, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence, that homeopathy is quackery. Over the years quite a lot of research was done on a rather large scale, involving all kinds of homeopathy, and many researchers tried to summarize the results. The answer is what could be expected: homeopathy doesn’t work. I wonder what follows next: voodoo? witchcraft? I simply reference the conclusion of the report of the British Government that, unlike the Greek one, undertook some research on the matter:

"By providing homeopathy on the NHS (National Health System) and allowing MHRA (Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency) licensing of products which subsequently appear on pharmacy shelves, the Government runs the risk of endorsing homeopathy as an efficacious system of medicine. To maintain patient trust, choice and safety, the Government should not endorse the use of placebo treatments, including homeopathy. Homeopathy should not be funded on the NHS and the MHRA should stop licensing homeopathic products."

http://www.publications.parliament.u...tech/45/45.pdf
http://www.skepsis.nl/…/critical-con...omeopa…/

[Cyclops]

Just saying but homeopathic cures do show efficacy, to the exact same degree as placebos. Its not its not fair to say they do nothing, they do the same as sugar pills and distilled water.

My cousin took a "degree" in Homeopathy, and she insists "like cures like", camel hair is healthier than wool (it does make cool coats I have to say) and distillation increases the efficacy of cures. I suggested she go to a country with rabies and get bitten so she could prove the "hair of the dog" nonsense but she didn't like that, thought I wasn't taking her seriously.

I have no problem with efficacious medicine. In Australia the medical establishment has resisted a lot of Chinese medicine but I believe after clinical trials some elements like acupuncture have been approved for limited funding: that's a big deal because wester medicine in Australia has been dead set against any recognition for them.

Sadly many insurance companies have jumped on board with "alternative" (=mostly bogus) medicine and included it in their cover, so these jokers gain a semblance of legitimacy for their beliefs when it has been done for their profitability.

it has to be said Big Pharma and the Health Industry make easy targets of themselves with a lot of poorly restrained greed and dishonesty, it opens the door for crackpots to gain trust for their creeds.

[Sphere]

I wonder what follows next: voodoo? witchcraft?

GMO bans. Very popular in Europe as a effective way to protect public health. Entirely without a scientific basis.

[John Doe]

What's so wrong about the placebo effect? When there isn't a viable conventional cure, what's wrong with a little white lie to make people feel taken care of, sometime that all they want, a little token of care in a pill form to swallow three times a day. Irrational people need irrational treatment, just presented as conventional. On the bright side, there are only imaginary harmful side effect to homeopathy, nothing another of those sugary pills cant take care of.

If people feel better taking that crap, why prevent them from doing so? Just put an organic or fair trade sticker on the box for extra feel good. I understand scientists wanting to be killjoys, but politician aren't scientist, it's their job to give what people need want.

Anyway, sometime medicines are only a fraction more effective at treating the illness than the placebo, aren't they the real scandal?

[Garbarsardar]

What's so wrong about the placebo effect? When there isn't a viable conventional cure, what's wrong with a little white lie to make people feel taken care of, sometime that all they want, a little token of care in a pill form to swallow three times a day. Irrational people need irrational treatment, just presented as conventional. On the bright side, there are only imaginary harmful side effect to homeopathy, nothing another of those sugary pills cant take care of.

If people feel better taking that crap, why prevent them from doing so? Just put an organic or fair trade sticker on the box for extra feel good. I understand scientists wanting to be killjoys, but politician aren't scientist, it's their job to give what people need want.

Anyway, sometime medicines are only a fraction more effective at treating the illness than the placebo, aren't they the real scandal?

Of course. Outrageous outcome studies? Yes. Carefully selected samples? Yes. Ignoring regression to the mean? Daily. "Bad" data filling closet upon closet? That too. However on the one hand we have a dys/mis-regulated industry and on the other an industry that it is impossible to regulate by any means we here now possess.

[John Doe]

However on the one hand we have a dys/mis-regulated industry and on the other an industry that it is impossible to regulate by any means we here now possess.

Impossible to regulate homeopathy? You need to make your case on that. I think that "a working group that will delineate the parameters" is very close to what comes before regulations are written down. The devil will be in the details ........ and the money trail.

Homeopathy is like chiropractic treatment, aromatherapy, acupuncture, etc..., whatever is proven to help a patient shouldn't be discarded: the placebo effect is real, it goes against the Cartesian mindset but why not make the most of it?

[Garbarsardar]

I would never discard anything that helps a patient, nor would I legitimise "anything that helps a patient" as medical practise. Praying, for example, helps most religious patients in that sense, but I would not delineate the parameters under which a church is considered medical practice. If the church claims that the holy shockabibly is the mediator between the supreme superbibly and the patient, I cannot regulate its presence and intercession.

[John Doe]

Yes you can regulate the presence of the church within public hospital, and we do. Priest have to get an enhance disclosure to work with vulnerable people, Doctors can't advise on religious ground and staff may not display their own belief. There might be a dedicated place of worship within hospital ground, with other religious activity restricted everywhere else.

I have no words for the stupidity of such decision,

It's premature, they haven't decided anything yet.

[Ludicus]

I have no words for the stupidity of such decision, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence, that homeopathy is quackery

Indeed.There is no scientific case for homeopathy.
Science-Based Medicine

John Doe

What's so wrong about the placebo effect?

Nothing, but that's another subject.Placebos can have an effect on some conditions such as pain, sleep disorders, fatigue, anxiety, etc, but placebos won't shrink tumors or cure viruses or bacterial infections, and does not improve your cholesterol, for example.
Recommended readings,
Placebo Effects in Medicine — NEJM
The Placebo Phenomenon - Harvard Magazine

[John Doe]

Nothing, but that's another subject.Placebos can have an effect on some conditions such as pain, sleep disorders, fatigue, anxiety, etc, but placebos won't shrink tumors or cure viruses or bacterial infections, and does not improve your cholesterol, for example.
Recommended readings,
Placebo Effects in Medicine — NEJM
The Placebo Phenomenon - Harvard Magazine

I view Homeopathy merely as placebo. And it is why looking into how to delimit its use within the official medical practice is not a stupid decision.

[Ludicus]

I view Homeopathy merely as placebo.

"delineate the parameters of making homeopathy an official medical practice" (OP) -well, that is an erroneous and dangerous decision.
Homeopathy is not used as a placebo.Homeopathy is used to "treat" everything and nothing, and that should not allowed.OP is completely correct.
For example, the National Institute of Health and Care Excellence (NICE) does not recommend that homeopathy should be used in the treatment of any health condition.
--------
Even for Placebo-controlled trials there are guidelines for considering the ethical use of placebo controls. Please read carefully the whole paper,

The use of placebo controls in clinical research that involves patients who have an active disease for which there is approved treatment is ethically questionable and may represent substandard care

[Garbarsardar]

It's premature, they haven't decided anything yet.

Oh they have. Even official language is quite clear on this: they have decided to legitimise homeopathy and they look for the parameters to do so. The statement nowhere implies legitimization is in question. Of course no research was or will be undertaken prior to the decision.

[Ludicus]

If this is true has anyone questioned Greek legitimacy both as a nation and with requisite ability to govern themselves?

I see, you hate Greece and the Greeks. Frankly, that's a ridiculous statement. In Germany, as in the US, homeopathy has received support from individual politicians,

Taking On Homeopathy in Germany « Science-Based Medicine

Despite the science, homeopathy has persevered through a combination of cultural inertia and political support.

But in the last year there are signs that this trend may be reversing. In the UK The House of Commons Science and Technology Committee (STC) released a report, Evidence Check 2: Homeopathy, in which they conclude that homeopathy is failed science and should be completely abandoned – no further support in the NHS and no further research.

Following that the British Medical Association has openly called for an NHS ban on homeopathy, calling the practice “witchcraft.”

...There have already been many attempts to drop protective provisions on such remedies, but influential politicians have consistently prevented this from happening,” Hess said, adding that despite hundreds of medical studies failing to clearly prove the benefits of homeopathics, insurers are still made to pay for them

It sounds like Germany has had their own Tom Harkin and Orin Hatch to contend with. Political support for homeopathy in the US actually goes back much further. In 1938 Senator Royal Copeland from New York, a homeopath, managed to insert into the new FDA regulations automatic approval for homeopathic products. This situation continues to today – homeopathic products do not require any testing for safety and efficacy.

Well, may I ask, paraphrasing," has anyone questioned Germany legitimacy both as a nation and with requisite ability to govern themselves?"

[athanaric]

it has to be said Big Pharma and the Health Industry make easy targets of themselves with a lot of poorly restrained greed and dishonesty, it opens the door for crackpots to gain trust for their creeds.

Yeah... but homeopathic products are pretty expensive, too.

Well, may I ask, paraphrasing," has anyone questioned Germany legitimacy both as a nation and with requisite ability to govern themselves?"

I have. If Germany were governed as a province of Denmark, the Netherlands, or the Czech Republic, the Germans would probably be better off.

Also, homeopathy is very strong in Germany. You can even get refunds from some health insurance companies if you use homeopathic products.

[Ludicus]

Also, homeopathy is very strong in Germany. You can even get refunds from some health insurance companies if you use homeopathic products.

..and that's not a wise decision. I think we are saying the same thing. Have you read the link?

...Now German politicians are starting to echo the same sentiments.

Karl Lauterbach, the centre-left Social Democrats’ chair on the Bundestag health committee, told German news magazine Der Spiegel that insurers should be “prohibited from paying for homeopathy.”

and

According to Spiegel, Rainer Hess of the Federal Joint Committee for doctors and insurers also characterized the current situation as “extremely unsatisfactory.”

The common thread in the UK and Germany is rising health care costs, which is creating the political will to oppose worthless interventions like homeopathy. Up until now systems like homeopathy which are not science-based have received political support from individual believers and promoted largely through the notion of “health care freedom.”

But the political climate is changing, and suddenly paying for interventions that do not work seems unnecessarily wasteful. This creates an opportunity to focus attention on interventions like homeopathy

[athanaric]

Well, that certainly explains the unwarranted rise of healthcare insurance costs (that, and failed immigration policies combined with aging populations). Hopefully they'll succeed in redressing the situation.
Unfortunately, doctors and chemists are not known for their critical thinking. Quite a few of them peddle this stuff - I guess we have to be thankful they haven't reverted to rhino horns yet.

[Stavroforos]

My suspicious mind immediately thought that this will be the Greek state's attempting to appear to rescue itself from the collapse of the public health system. If they have it cheap or subsidized, I wouldn't even be surprised if they promoted it as a viable alternative to real medicine. In fact, given how stupid Greek people are, if you tell them it's the "natural cure" and that they won't be paying money to "big Pharma" then they'll be getting a lot of idiots on board. "I can't pay for my medicine anymore, but it's okay because we have homeopathy now!"

Of course if they really want to make it a sure success, they should say that the cures have been know since ancient times, and various ancient Greeks wrote about it, write some shite about philosophers in there, and you're set. If a Greek philosopher said it, it'll be accepted as truth.

[Ludicus]

Unfortunately, doctors and chemists are not known for their critical thinking.Quite a few of them peddle this stuff

I presume you are talking about politicians. Homeopathic "doctors" are not medical doctors.Medicine is evidence/science based... (there is a difference, let's say that science-based is a refinement to evidence-based)

[Garbarsardar]

Well, may I ask, paraphrasing," has anyone questioned Germany legitimacy both as a nation and with requisite ability to govern themselves?"

Or the Swiss.

Switzerland, is one country that actually took the trouble to concoct a review of homeopathy in 2011. The review concluded that homeopathy is effective and should be covered by insurance. The trick of the review was eventually uncovered in 2012:

If homeopathy is highly likely to be effective but this cannot be consistently proven in clinical trials, the question arises of what conditions are needed for homeopathy to show its effectiveness and realise its potential, and what conditions threaten to obscure this?


What happened is that since clinical trials yielded no effect at all, the Swiss review used "pragmatic studies" or "real world studies", a term of some fame within the pseudo-science crowd, being a byword for "I cannot control my variables properly".

[Dromikaites]

Since some people express skepticism as to the effectiveness of homeopathic medication the Greek government can opt for a double-safety approach.

The Greek government can mandate by law that homeopatic treatment should always be accompanied by prayers.