Preview Scroll Five: Đại Việt

[tuanluu214]

Great works! I believe that even if the mod are not able to be released, your researching project still has its value. It is a fundamental and reference for other mod teams in other total war series or even for Sega to develop a game based on this time frame.

[Hoplite of Ilis]

Such fine work! Modders never cease to amaze, provided they are given the tools. They made CA what it is, and CA turns a blind eye!

[demagogos nicator]

Great preview, I did not even know that this mod is still being developed.

[nhinhonhinho]

It's great! Welcome back good sir, long times no see. I Just find this on front page

[Valentin-Daruvar]

So, why cant I see any images? Too bad...

[Valentin-Daruvar]

Scratch that, now works like a Rolex.. Interesting mod man

[Aomari]

There are many things wrong that hopefully can be fix in the full release:
- About the “Mountains and Rivers of the Southern Country" (Nam Quốc Sơn Hà) poem. Lý Thường Kiệt didn't write that poem. More likely he recited it. The poem first appeared in the Selection of Strange Tales in Lĩnh Nam (Lĩnh Nam chích quái) dated from the 14th century Trần Dynasty. The story of it happened in the early day of the Early Lê dynasty (980–1009) under the reign of Lê Đại Hành (980–1005) the first Emperor of the Early Lê Dynasty. It was first heard during the Đại Cồ Việt - Song War or The First Đại Cồ Việt - Song War in 981 A.D (Lý Thường Kiệt was involved in the Second Đại Việt - Song War 1077 A.D). The poem has no writer. No one know even to this day and considered it mysterious.

- About the Cham-influenced architecture. There are no evidences for this, on the contrary, Đại Việt is the most dangerous Cham-culture destroyer. Đại Việt had heavy Chinese-influenced architecture.

- The programme 'Ngu Binh U Nong / 寓兵於農' (lit. reserve soldiers-turned farmers) was infact the fubing system of the Tang dynasty.
http://totallyhistory.com/tang-dynasty-military/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fubing_system

- About the clothes of the Lộ quân "the Local armies":
+ The Dan Binh andHuong Binh: They didn't wearing that kind of clothes and conical hat from 19th century.
They wore Tang dynasty - style clothes. They even wore only loincloth and have tattoo. They have bald, short hair, long hair, bun.

This picture depict soldiers in the Trần Dynasty after studied pictures, statues and historical evidents. They can be used for the Lý Dynasty since they are close related.

+ The Dai Viet archer has 19th century clothes also.

- About the Vassal & Imperial Armies:
+ All the turban are wrong. They was wore in the 19th century. Like I said, they have bald, short hair, long hair, bun but no turban.

+ In recent years, Vietnamese had uncover a relic soldier's iron or steel hats that have look similar to the Song dynasty hat.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Top: The newly uncovered hats.
Below: Comparison to the Song dynasty's hat below.

- The hats can be used by many classes depend on the materials.
+ Local armies: made from bamboo, rattan.....
+ Vassal & Imperial Armies: Iron and steel.
Also they have a statue that depict a Lion hat warrior that similar to one in the Tang dynasty:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Top: The Lion hat statue.
Below: The Tang dynasty's Lion Warrior equivalent (the guy on the right)

Hope this hat can be used on the Dũng Nghĩa Binh ( 義兵勇 , lit. "Brave & Righteous Troops) because that look very badass.

Note: Maybe this considered a request but can lamellar armour be used for Dai Viet ? Although it had no evidents to backup but it still cool to see the popular armour on some faction like Dai Viet.
Many pictures can't be loaded. Can anyone upload them to new host ?

[isa0005]

Its alive!

[IGdood]

Looks like the images disappeared and it's back to "DRAFT" status

[Mr.IAmHere]

Yeah I can't see any pictures. When I open the picture in a new tab dropbox says your pics "are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled!"

Might just be me, but I think your image host is a bit of a dick.

[IGdood]

I would recommend imgur as a host. Dropbox and photobucket have bandwidth limits.

[xHolyCrusader]

Oh yep, now all the images are down for me too.
Can only recommend imgur aswell, had no problems with it so far and i uploaded a of images to it already xd

[Yelü Dashi]

Uploading to imgur now - apologies about that !

There are many things wrong that hopefully can be fix in the full release:

Aomari - where have you been all this time ? Whilst we try to be as historically accurate as possible, the evidence from the Ly dynasty period is scant, and we have had to be creative about intrepreting some unit designs. That said, you seem have some interesting new archaeological evidence.

Also, sometimes historical accuracy looks a bit weird - for example, for the Dũng Nghĩa Binh unit we did actually make them with tigerskin helmets, but they looked a bit weird in-game. Maybe we can revisit.

Is that picture from the book "Ngan nam ao mu" (A Thousand Years of Costume), I tried to find this book last time I was in HCMC ?

I think we can definitely make some simple edits to existing units to make them more in lin with your suggestions. For example, I already have tattooed units for Khmers, which we could use for the Viet. My only concerns are we don't end up creating a Tang dynasty roster

Do you want to join the dev team, and actually help us out ? I say "team"....there's just me right now

[Yelü Dashi]

Aomori....some questions for you.

Let's talk hats, one of my favourite topics.

I'm confused about your comments about the Non La (conical hat) on the peasant units. Something like these iconic hats were embossed on Ngoc Lu drums about 2500 to 3000 years ago.
Their clothes are pretty generic too. Not sure how these become "19th century". But I so like the loincloth/tattooing - perhaps we'll meet half way and I make more of these troops 'topless', and I *might* remove the hats ?

As for the other hats I created for archer and spearman, and captain/ Dung Nghia, they both pretty much match your Tran images:



I don't really see the vassal troops as wearing turbans, it's more of a kerchief ? I realise the traditional Viet turbans like this:


....., came much much later. But that wasn't what we trying to replicate.

Anyway - the evidence for the Song style helmets interesting. Have they dated the finds ? I don't mind adding these, even though it might affect the uniqueness of the units, I am cool editing a few of them to better fit the evidence. Which units should don these iron helmets ? I am thinking we might give them to all vassal troops replacing the turbans ?

Regarding the archer - what aspect is 19th century ? Is it the tunic ?

Lastly....you mentioned lamellae - which units would you use this for ? The Imperial Guard already have scale armour, which is pretty close. Also, I appreciate you're trying to be historically appropriate with a lot of your comments, but you end with saying 'this would look cool' (which it would, but most other factions will use lamellar) - that kinda contradicts your previous comments.

[Aomari]

Aomari - where have you been all this time ? Whilst we try to be as historically accurate as possible, the evidence from the Ly dynasty period is scant, and we have had to be creative about intrepreting some unit designs. That said, you seem have some interesting new archaeological evidence.

Also, sometimes historical accuracy looks a bit weird - for example, for the Dũng Nghĩa Binh unit we did actually make them with tigerskin helmets, but they looked a bit weird in-game. Maybe we can revisit.

Is that picture from the book "Ngan nam ao mu" (A Thousand Years of Costume), I tried to find this book last time I was in HCMC ?

I think we can definitely make some simple edits to existing units to make them more in lin with your suggestions. For example, I already have tattooed units for Khmers, which we could use for the Viet. My only concerns are we don't end up creating a Tang dynasty roster

Do you want to join the dev team, and actually help us out ? I say "team"....there's just me right now

Well, I thought this mod had been dead for years. Not only me but also many of my friends (Yevon and many more) thought that, too. I just revisit here after saw this preview on the TWCenter home screen.

What you said is true, the historical evidents is indeed scant. Just recently, I had received news about the Lý Dynasty's architecture archaeology find and it showed heavily Tang Dynasty's style architecture influence.

No, all the pictures aren't from the book "Ngàn năm áo mũ" (A Thousand Years of Costume). They just appeared recently (the Trần dynasty's soldiers was drew by one of my friends artist). About the book, I can pm you a pdf version of it (be warned it wasn't translated in English). It was over 2 years, the author wouldn't care.

Well, the Lý dynasty is heavy influenced by the Tang dynasty but still they are unique in their own ways.

About the Lý dynasty and the Trần dynasty of Dai Viet faction. I think you guys did a good job here. There are nothing much i can provide to you guys but if you need anything, just pm and i will answer.

[Yelü Dashi]

All images have now been re-uploaded, please refresh the page and let me know if you can see them now. Hopefully should be working.

Thanks Aomari. Yes, this mod has been hibernating. But as they say in the Iron Islands..."what is dead may never die" I will definitely be in touch if I need your help.

Is yevon still around ?

[Aomari]

Aomori....some questions for you.

Let's talk hats, one of my favourite topics.

I'm confused about your comments about the Non La (conical hat) on the peasant units. Something like these iconic hats were embossed on Ngoc Lu drums about 2500 to 3000 years ago.
Their clothes are pretty generic too. Not sure how these become "19th century". But I so like the loincloth/tattooing - perhaps we'll meet half way and I make more of these troops 'topless', and I *might* remove the hats ?

As for the other hats I created for archer and spearman, and captain/ Dung Nghia, they both pretty much match your Tran images:



I don't really see the vassal troops as wearing turbans, it's more of a kerchief ? I realise the traditional Viet turbans like this:


....., came much much later. But that wasn't what we trying to replicate.

Anyway - the evidence for the Song style helmets interesting. Have they dated the finds ? I don't mind adding these, even though it might affect the uniqueness of the units, I am cool editing a few of them to better fit the evidence. Which units should don these iron helmets ? I am thinking we might give them to all vassal troops replacing the turbans ?

Regarding the archer - what aspect is 19th century ? Is it the tunic ?

Lastly....you mentioned lamellae - which units would you use this for ? The Imperial Guard already have scale armour, which is pretty close. Also, I appreciate you're trying to be historically appropriate with a lot of your comments, but you end with saying 'this would look cool' (which it would, but most other factions will use lamellar) - that kinda contradicts your previous comments.

First I'll add some missing things i forgot to add in the last post then i'll answer your questions.

- About the Imperial Army Cavalry:
The name was wrong, It is Xa ky binh (Xạ kỵ binh) not Xy ky binh. Dai Viet' cavalry was deployed pretty much very like their Chinese counterpart (except for cataphract which didn't appear until 16th century during Trịnh - Mạc War). They have both lancers and horse archers and they function as one. This can be difficult for Med 2 engine so I suggest we have two units lancer and horse archer. The lancers was armed with daos and lance.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This picture depict a Trần Dynasty's lancer during exercise and judging from the look, he must be using the lance by two hand. This woodblock is kept at The Museum of Vietnamese History.

Dai Viet's nobles in the Lý and Trần Dynasty not only practicing horse archery but also close combat as well.

- Some points about the Vassal Armies:
As the name suggest there are many vassal armies not only the Gia Binh. The Lý and Trần dynasty didn't have total control over the northern mountainous territories and the southern mountainous territories around the province Nghe An - Thanh Hoa - Ha Tinh. So marriage alliance, zhao’an policy was employed. This resulted in many native local warlords swear alliance to the Lý and Trần dynasty and brought thiers own native troops to the war. This armies was called Phien binh (Phiên binh) - lit. "unregular armies" or "vassal armies".

- About the shields: Dai Viet didn't only use blank shield. They like to decorated their shields with moon and stars, lion and tiger, animals even dragon.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is another picture from Th

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

e Museum of Vietnamese History. It depict a pair of warrior in training excersice. As you can see, thier shield is decorated.

Now to answer your questions:
- I don't know where you get that idea from but I had seen Ngoc Lu drum. All the pictures on the surface didn't depict a conical hat. Vietnamese call that feather hat but I doubt that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The first appearance of conical hat is on some painting during the Nguyễn Dynasty (1802-1945) but they were even difference from what I saw in your work.

- Men during the Lý and Trần Dynasty didn't wear only pants. They wore some kind of long skirt like women over their short pants as you can see in the picture about the Trần dynasty's soldier. Their coat is basically Tang dynasty style with round neck. I really don't see them generic even Vietnamese nowaday claim that coat had been invented thousand of years ago.

- There are no evidents of existing turban before 18th century in Viet Nam. So turban in any timeline before 18th century is considered nonsense. But it was the Vietnamese that claim that turban was invented thousand of years ago along with "generic" Ao dai (long dress).

- The exactly date of the iron/steel helmets was unknown. It was found along with many relics from the Lý-Trần archaelogy site so archaelogists concluded they were from Lý-Trần timeline of 11~14 th century. Using them on the Vassal armies and the Imperial armies (iron/steel) was a very good idea. The Imperial armies can have both the hats and helmets.

- The tunic and the pants of course.

- I was saying that was a suggestion because I think Dai Viet is belong to the Sinosphere group and heavily influenced by China. So why all other countries gets lamellar armour (Korean, Japan, China) and Dai Viet only get scale ? That is weird for a country that based almost its millitary on Chinese model.

[Aomari]

Thanks Aomari. Yes, this mod has been hibernating. But as they say in the Iron Islands..."what is dead may never die" I will definitely be in touch if I need your help.

Is yevon still around ?

Yes he still online but for some reason he is too occupied with many things.

[Ataegina]

there is alot of quallity on this mod

[Yayattasa]

Hey Aomari, what's the source of this picture? Great illustration.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: