~Flames from Hell~ Dragon Break HS

[Ventos Mustel]

If you can get defeats, doesnt that mean heroic victories arent allowed?

[Jadli]

defeat isnt victory....

[Ventos Mustel]

But it is a result. I thought the whole purpose of the rule was to prevent players getting victories where they can only be gotten through Heroic

[Jadli]

Rules about heroic victories always either ban the heroic victories completely, or occasionally allow them if you cant get normal victory. Its truth, the rule in this HS literally says its allowed only when you cant get any other result, but as you pointed out defeat is also a result. But that would not make any sense, so Im pretty sure it was supposed to say "heroic victories are allowed only when you cant get any other type of victory."

Im pretty sure admin would confirm

[zkarel]

its allowed only when you cant get any other result, according to the rules its allowed in many hotseats but when it actually comes to talking about the rule people say no to it.

[Ventos Mustel]

If that is the case I have to ask what the purpose of the rule even is

[zkarel]

atleast thats my experience with it. 5 times have i used it 5 times have i gotten a replay request

[Jadli]

Well, in the cases I know about it was usually allowed.

Its about whats written in the rules, if the rule admits its allowed, then admin should allow it. If the rule says its not allowed, then admin cant allow it. Im the case the rules allow it, but Ill rather ask joe then

[Ventos Mustel]

Im pretty sure the exception for 'if you cant get any other kind of result" is specifically for cases like this one where you have a combination of massive differences in general and troop quality that means literally no other result is possible, victory or otherwise.

[Jadli]

Its up to admin to decide what does he allow and what not to... No point in arguing about that furthermore, we have to wait what he say

[Captainnorway]

I dont see why this is an issue, I said it was fine by me and it is my navy taking the hit...

[zkarel]

its about the rule itself. Last time i turned to joe himself about it. I had to replay.

[saleska2]

There are certain scenarios in which littelry the only possible result is a heroic victory

[joerock22]

The time zkarel mentioned where I ordered a replay was in Iliac Bay, where the rule was this:

Heroic victory bug: No Heroic victories at all. If you get a heroic victory you must reload until you get a different result, and if you cannot get a different result then you will not be allowed to play the battle.

In this hotseat, the rule is this:

Heroic victories vs players aren't allowed (exception when it's impossible to get another result)

So it's not as obvious what the right answer is. But I still think we have to go by the literal meaning of the words. Since the word "result" includes victories, defeats, and draws, if it is possible to get a defeat then the heroic victory is not allowed. This comports with the general hotseat policy against heroic victories. The AR in this mod is unbalanced enough as it is, without allowing many heroic victories.

Nevertheless, I'm going to message the co-admin to see if he agrees.

[cjm81499]

Not sure popular sovereignty is a deciding factor here, but I cast my vote for allowing it. In my opinion the rule was probably intended to mean unless you can't get other victory types. I think I remember seeing once that intentionally losing a battle was against the rules, since you could potentially somehow use it to your advantage later, though that may not be applicable to this particular hotseat. But if so, that would mean that defeat in this case would not count as an eligible result, since it in itself would be against the rules, and you could not do that in your turn in any case.

[Ventos Mustel]

The no defeats rule is my fault, and has nothing to do with the no heroics rule whatsoever

[Jadli]

King athelstan isnt hotseating anymore so I dont think you have a coadmin

And ehm, its obvious what the rule says. If the heroic victories werent allowed, it would have been written differently. If the heroic were allowed completely, it would have been also written differently.
Its more than obvious what the rule meant to say, defeats are generally considered exploit and in most hotseats nobody has ever posted defeat, thus the rule is actually pretty clear. The rule is written similarily in plenty other hotseats too. And in all hotseats that has it (written clearly or not) it works fine.
Sorry joe, but you make no sense. If you take the words literally, it means heroic victory is allowed only when you cant get victories, draws and defeats. Such battle does not exist.

I guess we should ask creator of the rules, then?

[saleska2]

So the rule comes from a bug which makes an overwhelming force only able to get heroic victories or crushing defeats (crushing defeat means the opponent got a heroic victory). A clear defeat is another result so the heroic victory wouldnt be allowed as heroic victories are overall just too crazy good but if Jadli only got crushing defeats it should be allowed.

In this case I do think we do all parties involved a good favor by allowing it.

[Ventos Mustel]

Such battles do exist, Jadli. I myself have encountered such situations in FOTE and OKTR. It generally occurs when one side has a massively more powerful general than the other

[Jadli]

In the navy battle I had about 20 clear/close defeats, and perhaps 5 heroic victories....

Such battles do exist, Jadli. I myself have encountered such situations in FOTE and OKTR. It generally occurs when one side has a massively more powerful general than the other

Well, LOL