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Thread: Italian States Research Thread

  1. #1
    The_Culverin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Italian States Research Thread

    Post anything (manuscripts, paintings, etc.) pertaining to the 13-15th century Italian states soldiers/army in this thread along with a simple description of it. I will periodically post my own stuff aswell.

    PS: I have no relation with the mod whatsoever, I only thought it would be helpful to give them some ideas on what to do for the Italian countries.
    Last edited by The_Culverin; May 21, 2016 at 04:31 PM.

  2. #2
    The_Culverin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Here are some images from multiple Italian medieval era battles. (Specifically the battles of Montaperti and Benevento)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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    Last edited by The_Culverin; May 21, 2016 at 04:36 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Druzhina's website with his collection of illustrations displayed there. http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Italy.htm

    I would like to make these helmets for the Italian Knights.

  4. #4
    The_Culverin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Heres a model of King Manfred Hohenstaufen of Sicily (1258–1266) that could be of use (in battle of course )
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Along with an Early Era Sicilian axeman (1260ish). Edit: Questionable
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by The_Culverin; May 21, 2016 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Is that some sort of coat of plates that Sicilian is wearing?

  6. #6
    The_Culverin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    I suspect its leather over chainmail, along with bronze(?) greaves on his legs.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Bronze greaves? That is really weird for 13th century.

  8. #8
    The_Culverin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Its a metal of some sort. It could be a mistake on the creators part... At least we know his greaves are metal plates.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Well its just nobody sees that kind of greaves until the 14th century. Minus the helmet, the guy looks very 14th-15th century to me.

  10. #10
    Påsan's Avatar Hva i helvete?
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    looks coat of plates to me.

    Anyway I really find Norman Sicily interesting as a mix between Italian, Byzantine, Arabic and Norman culture. And it somehow worked really well for a time. At the time of this mod though the golden age was almost over as the Muslims were gulag'd and eventually expelled not long after 1212.

    Oh and Italian plate armor.
    Last edited by Påsan; May 18, 2016 at 08:14 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    I suspect that the creator of the model was misinformed on the subject. Should have noticed it right away...
    Last edited by The_Culverin; May 21, 2016 at 04:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Well, actually early coats of plates were already in use in the late 13th century, so he should be more or less fine for the 1260ish period.

  13. #13
    The_Culverin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Oh? Nice to know!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Examples of Heavy Venetian Infantrymen (mid-late 15th century)
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    Examples of Genoese crossbowmen (mid-14th century to mid-15th century)
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    Medieval 2 crossbowmen for reference
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  15. #15
    The_Culverin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Info concerning the helmets from 15th-century Italy from the book Italian Medieval Armies 1200-1500.
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    Last edited by The_Culverin; May 21, 2016 at 04:37 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Now that you showed Barbutes it reminded me of these:



  17. #17
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Those look pretty good!

    (However, they both seem to be more of a ceremonial type of helmet than a helmet ment for a battle scenario. )

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Unit suggestion. This unit is in many ways a late era or burgher version of Armed Peasants. Late game units tend to boil down to elite full plate for all factions. More more plate in general is good, but to break up the monotony of seeing a battle line with nothing but a sea of plate, I suggest a light late swords for German and Italian cities.

    Sword & Bucklers - Late light melee infantry. Medium-high attack depending on price range. Armoured with a sallet, fashionable padding of their time or the occasional fragments of plate. See the lighter infantry units here (Baggage Train of an army, Wolfegg Housebook, 1475-1485) or here (two late armies meet, Codex Palatinus Germanicus Kriegsbuch, 1496) that were used at the time. This unit represent the young, reckless and proud men of their home city. Not able to afford knightly plate, they band up and grab what they can as they make their way to defend their home against looters.

    The modern obsession with swords is attributed to many things. Possibly one of the greater influences is the fact that civilians could afford swords in the late middle ages. The greater number of people with swords eventually lead to fencing schools and fencing treatises, of which we can easily point to the early German and Italian fencing treatises such as MS I.33 (1293, Francia), Liechtenauer (1400), Talhoffer (1443) and Fiore (1409). People were learning how to use swords and these schools would remain popular throughout the late medieval, renaissance and to the 17th century. Not to be confused with electrified antenna tag, we're talking about arming sword, late 15th century sidesword [1][2] (early rapier), messer, falchion, dagger, etc. designed to kill people. Each Italian city usually had a city school, such as the Dardani School of Bologna. In the late era, the burgher class was armed and I think the part of Europe that had the greatest density of cities would appreciate a makeshift unit to reflect that.

    ~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Culverin View Post
    Those look pretty good!

    (However, they both seem to be more of a ceremonial type of helmet than a helmet ment for a battle scenario. )
    They can be used for officers or generals I guess

    Also these are visored barbutes as well, but I dont know when they were in use.



    Last edited by jim501; May 20, 2016 at 08:53 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Italian States Research Thread

    Probably late 15th century to all through out 16th century. I'll look online for extra details and I can attempt to recreate it.

    EDIT: Here is a helmet from Gondor

    http://armourandcastings.com/index.p...&productId=254
    Last edited by Slytacular; May 20, 2016 at 09:12 AM.

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