Mongols after the 1200's

[Blastoise Groudon]

Does anyone have any good information on what happen to the Mongols after the 13th century? After they started to collapse in China and elsewhere? I always wondered what they did in some centuries like the 16th or 17th centuries for example.

[The Friend]

There did exist a Northern Yuan Dynasty based in Mongolia till late 17th Century when the growing strength of the Manchu dynasty increasingly prevailed over it.

[EmperorBatman999]

In addition, Mongol successor states (tribes? Which is more correct?) continued to control territories in what is now Russia and Central Asia well into the 18th and 19th centuries.

The Golden Horde, claiming to be the direct successor of Genghis Khan, set itself up in the region between the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. They and the other Mongol tribes maintain some control and influence over the Russian principalities until 1480 when the Mongol forces of the Golden Horde and the Russians under the Grand Duchy of Moscow faced off at the Ugra River. The Mongol forces withdrew without a fight and the Russians then had control over themselves and from then on took the fight to the Mongol and Tartar groups as Russia grew south and east.

Various Khanates still existed into the 1700s and 1800s, like the Crimean Khanate (d. 1783) or the Khiva Khanate (d. 1920, yes into the 20th century). Overall after the breakup of the Golden Horde, none of the Mongol groups ever managed to hold major hegemony over one another. Also interestingly, many of these Khans actually embraced Islam as a religion.

Then there are the Timurids. Timur the Lame, a Muslim Mongol warlord, emerged in the late 1300s where he controlled the Persian Empire for about a century until it collapsed. However, one Timurid noble would go on to invade India and establish the Mughal Empire there.

[The Friend]

That indeed is a great summary of the successor states of the Mongol Empire. In many ways though most of the Khanates were no longer Mongol but completely assimilated either to the local culture or religion, isn't it? On the other hand one can also argue that the Babur, the first Mughal emperor definitely acknowledged his pride in his Mongol origin.

The core of the Mongol empire, if we define it in the above way, withdrew to Mongolia and existed as the Northern Yuan dynasty for a considerable period.

[EmperorBatman999]

Yes, in all technicality Mongol is no longer the correct term in most cases, but rather simply Tatar. Many of those Tatars, however, did get there with the Mongols but there were also many Turkic groups like the Cumans and Bulgars living in the region before the invasion that assimilated into this larger Turkic Tatar group.

[Roma_Victrix]

Does anyone have any good information on what happen to the Mongols after the 13th century? After they started to collapse in China and elsewhere? I always wondered what they did in some centuries like the 16th or 17th centuries for example.

As "The Friend" suggests with the collapse of the Northern Yuan Dynasty, the Manchu-led Qing Dynasty incorporated virtually all of present-day Mongolia into their empire by the 18th century, an empire which included all of China proper, Tibet, Xinjiang, and Taiwan. Today, "Inner Mongolia" is still an autonomous part of the People's Republic of China, while the Qing territory of "Outer Mongolia" is now the seperate nation of Mongolia.

[Cyclops]

Yes, in all technicality Mongol is no longer the correct term in most cases, but rather simply Tatar. Many of those Tatars, however, did get there with the Mongols but there were also many Turkic groups like the Cumans and Bulgars living in the region before the invasion that assimilated into this larger Turkic Tatar group.

Steppe identity is pretty fluid, and tribes would jostle and absorb one another and split and most people spoke multiple languages so pinning down exact ethnic identities for individuals and groups is a bit slippery.

IIRC "Mongol" was the name of Temujin's tribe, is that right? It was later applied to the several related clans (once they were subjugated) but these were mixed themselves, some more Turkic in character than others.

Of course the massive and rapid expansion of the Mongol conquests led to the inclusion of many other ethnicities in the horde, especially Turkic peoples with a similar steppe culture.

Typically within two or three generations the minority of Mongols in the ruling elites of the conquered regions took on the language, dress and manners (for all intents and purposes the ethnicity) of the local elites who shared their rule. In central Asia this could be Altaic of Turkic, in Turan and Iran it was an Iranian-Turkic blend (eg Timur I Lenk) based on the Turk-dominated hinterlands and Persianised cities of the region, and in China it was obviously Chinese culture, to an extent at least.

Genghis' rule was so powerful and effective that his conquests passed down intact for a generation before they shattered like a dropped plate in the time of Kublai Khan, who failed to dominate central Asia effectively from his Chinese base., IIRC Kublai never lost a war to his rivals for Mongol rule but simply could not establish the necessary reciprocal relationships with clan rulers: I suspect the cultural differences had grown to great fro a firm honour relationship between him and the Western steppe rulers.

Bear in mind Genghis' system of rule seems to have had a strong religious or spiritual component, that his successors were unable to replicate (being more interested in alcohol and sex): once he was dead political entropy was stronger than the bonds of horde identity.

Steppe hordes had risen and fallen within a few generations before, the Mongols example is remarkable for the strength of its bonds across such a wide area, given the lowly position they rose from. Steppe polities usually broke up fairly fast so the disintegration of the horde is not a function of weakness: the successor hordes maintained positions of great importance for centuries.

In the old Mongol heartland tribes bearing the Mongol name persisted: it was too good a name to give up. Some Mongols may actually be descended from the Mongols' of Genghis' day: I have read he has many millions of direct male line descendants across Asia.

[Aru]

I like your post, this plus the points above about Mongol successor states (which, while no longer Mongol, had Mongol heritage).

In the old Mongol heartland tribes bearing the Mongol name persisted: it was too good a name to give up. Some Mongols may actually be descended from the Mongols' of Genghis' day: I have read he has many millions of direct male line descendants across Asia.

However, this is a popular misconception. While Genghis and later Khans had a bunch of children, ancestry works in a way that most people are related if you go far enough back. Majority of Europeans are descendants of Charles the Great. Most Europeans are also descendants of anonymous peasant, in fact hundreds or thousands of them (peasants and tribesmen living thousand years ago and back). Powerful people just get into the people's ancestry more often due to being more attractive mates than anonymous peasants. Eventually, all humanity is descended from one person (one male and one female) not because we all sprouted from them, but because among millions of ancestors we have, we also have someone descendant from them.

It's mathematics and trees.

[Inhuman One]

It's interesting though that they actually did survive, the mongols still live on in their homeland while pretty much all great conquerors where destroyed.

[River Lord]

They survived in China till 17th c.
In Middle East they founded many little states such as Jalayirids, Chubanids and even in Turkey as Eretnids (well, founder was an Uyghur but he was a Mongol officer and his army was Mongol)
In North of Black Sea, Golden Horde lived some time then collapsed but Crimean Khanate (Khans were directly descended from Genghis Khan) lived till 18th c.
And I don't know why but very few heard this Khanate before, in Central Asia there were Dzungar Khanate which lived 18th c.