View Poll Results: Does NATO care for the defense of Poland?

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  • Yes

    26 61.90%
  • No

    9 21.43%
  • Hard to say

    7 16.67%
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Thread: NATO - myth or legend?

  1. #81
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    NATO? It is just a joke if its members continue acting like what they are now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  2. #82
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaul View Post
    Giving the virtual fact there will be no hot war, ever, (virtual fact) between NATO and Russia, but dare one make a move (hypothetically and a very slim reality) who will make the first move? And who will be willing to fire back?
    It is not a fact that such an event will never transpire, and with the recent aggressions from Putin's regime it has certainly moved closer towards the realm of being a possible outcome. Actually, a mere accident will be all that is needed for a full-blown (and very short) war and it will happen at a pace that none of us can anticipate nor react reasonably to. We were close plenty of times during the Cold War, and by the looks of it it actually never truely ended.

    The only fact is that Russia will not be able to win a conventional war with NATO, and that China would not risk its' own position to save Putin when it is far more profitable for them to stay neutral or even just grab Siberia once attrition hits hard.

    Saying that Russia is stronger (I assume you mean it in a hollistic manner) than NATO is just ludicrous. Putin's regime has accomplished one thing, isolation (which will just get worse from here on) and with it he and his crony-friends in the Kremlin has squandered this generation's chance of making Russia a prosperous nation, that isn't just a giant gas-station ruled by a tyrant and his closest (and richest) friends.

  3. #83
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    No one will make the 1st move unless they find a leader crazy enough to destroy the planet (you will be surpriced how many of them exist among humans).
    Why?
    Because: Most of you are to young to remember this but its true...No one wins!


    EDIT:
    Supporing previus post of mine,
    Reinforcing Deterence on NATO's eastern flank.

    Because we can not talk about such things relying only in our dreams or wishes. WAR is not a TW game.
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; June 16, 2016 at 11:32 AM.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  4. #84

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    No one will make the 1st move unless they find a leader crazy enough to destroy the planet (you will be surpriced how many of them exist among humans).
    Why?
    Because: Most of you are to young to remember this but its true...No one wins!

    Because we can not talk about such things relying only in our dreams or wishes. WAR is not a TW game.

    So true.

    Dear wise and honorable Putin. Part of making Russia great again is making it great for it's people again. A pocket full of money, a belly full of food, and a happy face is far better than annexing Crimea. USA needs you. Work to whisk away the world's troubles creates eternal self gratitude, and gratitude will appear time after time again, in the pages of WORLD HISTORY.
    "Run to the rescue with love and peace will follow"

  5. #85
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    The Russians have inventory and numbers, compared to NATO, so they'll outnumber them in the initial onslaught, rather like the Japanese for the first six to twelve months.

    Inventory is mostly legacy, and numbers are conscription, though Putin has been selectively upgrading certain capabilities.
    I have doubts about 'inventory' - of what. The US spends rather a lot of saving stuff carefully out in arid places. I like source are they spending at the same level to keep its old stuff in shape (as the US).
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #86

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    I'm told that twenty five thousand T-72s have been built.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  7. #87
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    I'm told that twenty five thousand T-72s have been built.
    Yea but only 3250 of them are still used and only 350 of them upgraded to T-72M3 model.
    With the 1200 T-90s are the only active tanks in Russia. 5500 T-80 were withdrawn as scrap because despite they were far better of any T-72/T-64 version, they were to complicated and expansive to maintain. 60 of them (19 as spare parts) were sold to Cyprus 2 years ago to complete Cyprus Armored Brigade with the rest of 42 T-80U/UKs.
    As you can see , military power is an issue far more complicated than numbers of tanks were build.
    Germany had 3000 Leo-2 and 2000 Leo-1A5 at its high peak of power but today has less than 300 Leo-2 ONLY!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  8. #88

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    The Germans upgraded their MBTs with SUVs armed with b(r)oomsticks. This should alarm anyone familiar with the history of the Wehrmacht.

    The Russians will want to present a target rich environment, so that the limited stock of precision munitions will get used up.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  9. #89

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    I've already said my piece in this thread (Holger Danske has laid it out very well as well), but I just want to pop back in briefly to reply to 40k that Russia most certainly does not have an advantage in numbers or equipment.

    Any conventional conflict between Russia and NATO would be resolved very much in NATO's favor, and also quite likely much more quickly than many would expect.

  10. #90

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    All of what you guys are saying is right. If a full blown NATO vs Russia war happened, NATO would win. But what to say about just eastern Europe? I'm not talking about two juggernauts trading blows, I'm just asking about eastern Europe. Is it honest for Poland and the Baltics to expect NATO "protection"? Protection in quotes because it is absolutely impossible* to happen. Should they except a Russian invitation to join the EEU (Eurasian Economic Union)? Ukraine said no, and look what happened to Ukraine. If Ukraine was indeed part of NATO, would the same thing have happened anyway? Of course of course. Should eastern Europe buddy up with Germany and Russia than? Yes.


    *absolutely impossible to happened. Whether we say strategically or willfully.
    Last edited by Gaul; June 26, 2016 at 05:56 PM.
    "Run to the rescue with love and peace will follow"

  11. #91

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    There's no doubt that NATO would win out eventually, and like Yamamoto, the Russian General Staff knows it. Putin must have no illusions as to the actual state of his military and actually how much of his nuclear arsenal actually would work if the command came down, which is why even a single anti ballistic missile system (if that works) is a threat, since the chances are that the Americans would sink the Russian boomers immediately.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  12. #92

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaul View Post
    Is it honest for Poland and the Baltics to expect NATO "protection"?
    Here is what you Worshipers of the Shirtless One don't get: the Poles and the Baltics are going to resist a Russian invasion no matter what the West does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaul View Post
    Should they except a Russian invitation to join the EEU (Eurasian Economic Union)?
    Over their dead bodies, they probably will. But they will also send lots of Russians to Hell before that happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaul View Post
    Ukraine said no, and look what happened to Ukraine.
    Ukraine managed to kill lots of Russians and until now has recovered 2/3 of the Donbas territory the Russians had captured in early 2014. Not bad for a country so much weaker than your beloved Mother Russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaul View Post
    If Ukraine was indeed part of NATO, would the same thing have happened anyway?
    Yeah, it would have happened just like the 2014, 2015 and the 2016 Russian invasions of Estonia have happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaul View Post
    Should eastern Europe buddy up with Germany and Russia than?
    Eastern Europe is on best terms with Germany. Not only that, the Eastern European countries and Germany are together part of the EU and NATO. Russia is part of neither. Even worse, Russia is under sanctions proposed and voted for by Germany. And let's remember Germany is taking part in all the NATO military exercises, both by land and sea.

    Go figure!
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MareNostrum

  13. #93
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    I'm told that twenty five thousand T-72s have been built.
    Most of which properly looks like this now:



    Or this:



    Good luck bringing the ~12.500 T-72/T-80s up to serviceable condition when it looks like Putin can't even afford his +2000 wunderwaffes.
    Last edited by Holger Danske; June 30, 2016 at 03:24 PM.

  14. #94

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    Here is what you Worshipers of the Shirtless One don't get: the Poles and the Baltics are going to resist a Russian invasion no matter what the West does.

    Over their dead bodies, they probably will. But they will also send lots of Russians to Hell before that happens.

    Ukraine managed to kill lots of Russians and until now has recovered 2/3 of the Donbas territory the Russians had captured in early 2014. Not bad for a country so much weaker than your beloved Mother Russia.

    Yeah, it would have happened just like the 2014, 2015 and the 2016 Russian invasions of Estonia have happened.

    Eastern Europe is on best terms with Germany. Not only that, the Eastern European countries and Germany are together part of the EU and NATO. Russia is part of neither. Even worse, Russia is under sanctions proposed and voted for by Germany. And let's remember Germany is taking part in all the NATO military exercises, both by land and sea.

    Go figure!
    Just what I wanted, an unbiased opinion...


    I asked truthful questions, regardless of what I love and don't love, and you haven't yet given me an answer. What proof do you have that NATO will full fill their eastern European obligations, much how the Allies DID NOT full fill their *many* eastern European obligations (Czechoslovakia, Poland, even the 1919 Versailles treaty) before and during WW2? What proof do you have NATO will behave any differently?

    Know what will instantly turn me off of being a fan of Putin? Him buddying up with Israel. Fact. Goodness should know greed from 10,000 miles away. If you're good, please don't side with greed.

  15. #95

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    What part of "the East Europeans would never join a Russian-controlled alliance no matter what the rest of NATO does" is hard to understand?!

    Your pro-Russian propaganda line "NATO won't lift a finger Eastern Europe" is totally irrelevant for the Eastern Europeans: the Eastern Europeans will fight the Russians even if the Western allies do not come to their aid.

    As for the Westerners, if they want to help, they will. If they don't want to honor the NATO treaty they won't. Either way, the moment Russia invades Eastern Europe, the Russian corpses will start piling up, just like they piled up in Ukraine.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MareNostrum

  16. #96

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Interesting. Yes, I'm fully aware if attacked E. Europe will defend itself..... Will NATO help? No. Why am I asking? Unless they pooled together every last possible thinkable resource, there's no definite they can fend off a Russian attack. Poland, perhaps. The tiny Baltics, probably not. Why are these Eastern European countries even in NATO? Because they know they *probably* can't fend off a Russian attack. So it's not a matter if E. Europe DOES defend itself.... It's a matter if NATO will charge in and do it's job, like it promised pretty please with sugar on top.

    The Baltics don't have the population or land mass to fend off a mechanized, strategic attack. Poland has the population, but the land mass is questionable, at least to me.

  17. #97

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    I think even by the most optimistic estimates the Baltic states will fall within 60 hours in the event of a large scale Russian attack. Which is why it makes good sense to have soldiers from other countries there. That way the first soldiers the Russians run into won't be Estonian or whatever, but British or American etc. I seriously doubt Russia is willing to make the gamble that those countries would sit idly by once the first coffins started arriving home.
    And besides it's not a "Russia goes completely ape and decides to invade it's neighbors 4 teh lulz" scenario the Baltic states are the most worried about, especially now. It's the sort of "hybrid warfare" that was/is used in the Ukraine. You know, little green men, mysteriously popping up to protect those ih and oh so persecuted Russian minorities etc etc.

    Under the stern but loving patronage of Nihil.

  18. #98

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    haha yes, how Dromikaites says Ukraine is reconquering it's eastern territory and sending the Russian army home. Dromikaites, the fact is Ukraine is not feeling the effects of the full Russian army, but a hybrid war, as Visna has pointed out. If Putin really wanted, he could have added a long time ago the Russian flag to all Ukraine, not just the Crimea.
    "Run to the rescue with love and peace will follow"

  19. #99

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaul View Post
    haha yes, how Dromikaites says Ukraine is reconquering it's eastern territory and sending the Russian army home. Dromikaites, the fact is Ukraine is not feeling the effects of the full Russian army, but a hybrid war, as Visna has pointed out. If Putin really wanted, he could have added a long time ago the Russian flag to all Ukraine, not just the Crimea.
    How exactly would Russia be able to support an attack 100km beyond its borders?! The Russian logistics broke down at Debaltseve, when all the Russians had to do was to transport ammo through friendly territory.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MareNostrum

  20. #100

    Default Re: NATO - myth or legend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    How exactly would Russia be able to support an attack 100km beyond its borders?! The Russian logistics broke down at Debaltseve, when all the Russians had to do was to transport ammo through friendly territory.

    They're not as backwards as your day dreaming would like it to be...

    @Visna. Yes, 100 American and 100 british soldiers in Estonia is more of a deterrent than 10,000 Estonian troops. It's kind of like a 100 man great wall of china.
    "Run to the rescue with love and peace will follow"

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