Research Thread: Schwyz

[Baron279]

As I am from Switzerland I'm excited to see Schwyz implemented as a playable faction. In every other TW game the Swiss were not implemented or not playable and I think they played a big role in medieval times.

The Swiss began their way to freedom by forming the Schweizer Eidgenossenschaft (I know this term changed from time to time and is in the beginning just a union between three small localities, but it might be a good chance to use the game mechanics by changing the name if they got a certain amount of provinces) as a union against the house of Habsburg. They crushed Burgundy during the Burgundian Wars (1474-1477).

I'm definitely not a historian or something in that direction, and I really want to start an interesting discussion.

And I'm really looking forward to the unit roster (which might be hard to research as everyone just associates the Swiss with pikemen and halbardiers in medieval times)

Burgundian Wars

Habsburg Wars

[Påsan]

I think the swiss will be really interesting once implemented. their avant-garde military innovations and the challenging start positions will probably make for a really enjoyable campaign experience. And I'm confident that there exist plenty of material for all periods for the swiss.

After all the habsburgs were orginally from a small swiss castle, their rise is almost like a rl version of the ultimate TW campaign.

[Kjertesvein]

Wow, those are some amazing looking colours. I really like that. Could you please add a date to when the images were made? I ask, because the artists often used the armour of his own time when depicting past events.

Thank you.

~Wille

[Baron279]

Wow, those are some amazing looking colours. I really like that. Could you please add a date to when the images were made? I ask, because the artists often used the armour of his own time when depicting past events.

Thank you.

~Wille

This particular image was made in 1551 probably by Hans Rudolf Manuel (1525–1571) according to Wikipedia.
I try to edit my first post and add the dates.

[Baron279]

I edited the images

Burgundian Wars

made in 1515 made between 1476 and 1483 made between 1511-1513

Habsburg Wars

made in 1551 I couldn't find a date

And I got some more interesting pics (There are plenty, just search for battle in particular)

Some more pics

Battle of Nancy 1477, made in 1513 Battle Of Morgarten 1315, made in 1483 Morgarten again, also made around 1483

Sorry for double post as I'm currently not allowed to edit my posts.

[caocao267]

Are we referring to them as an emergent faction? The Old Swiss Confederacy didn't come into existence until 1315, so it'd be pretty preposterous to have them on the map in 1212.

[Baron279]

Are we referring to them as an emergent faction? The Old Swiss Confederacy didn't come into existence until 1315, so it'd be pretty preposterous to have them on the map in 1212.

You are right. Before 1315 they were part of the HRE and wanted to be in the HRE, but in 1315 the Habsburgs got the dignity of the emperor and got in conflict with the localities of Uri, Schwyz and Unterwald which resulted in numerous battles and the urge of freedom. This all resulted in the union of the Old Swiss Confederacy.

In my opinion, it would be great to implement Schwyz in 1212 with the possibility to become the Swiss Confederacy or "Eidgenossenschaft" if they conquer some territory. Just like you could in AoC for example as Mercia to become the English Kingdom.

[Påsan]

Would be pretty simple to just have them as vassals of the HRE at the beginning. Unlike a lot of the other emergent factions the Swiss were a semi-unified political entity at the time, despite the founding charter of the area that was to become Switzerland being from 1291 the groundwork that made it possible was based on previous alliances.

Besides you gotta have the Swiss in a Medieval game, right, CA?

[You_Guess_Who]

If you read the Mod's Campaign Map Master Thread, which is stickied BTW, well yes Schwyz are planned by the mod team at the start. An HRE vassal alright.

[Baron279]

Some more pics:

Battle of Laupen in 1339, images made around 1484 prayer before battle and first reported usage of a white cross to identify each other in battle.

[Slytacular]

Anything from the 14th and 13th century?

[Baron279]

Anything from the 14th and 13th century?

Actually I couldn't find any pics made earlier than the 15th century maybe someone else can find something.

But I found another great pic from the battle of Sempach made in 1513 though.

[Inquisiteur Morphéus]

Machiavel give us some really usefull informations about the swiss's tactical methodes in his "the art of war" at the begging of the 16th century.

"but not a large and strong Battalion, as the Swiss do, which, in your Army, have five ranks of pikemen at the head, and seven on the flank"
"The Battalions of the Swiss, in these times, employed all the methods of the Phalanxes, as much in the size and entirety of their organization, as in the method of helping one another, and when coming to an engagement they place the Battalions one on the flank of the other, or they place them one behind the other. They have no way in which the first rank, if it should retire, to be received by the second, but with this arrangement, in order to help one another, they place one Battalion in front and another behind it to the right, so that if the first has need of aid, the latter can go forward and succor it. They put a third Battalion behind these, but distant a gun shot. This they do, because if the other two are repulsed, this (third) one can make its way forward, and the others have room in which to retire, and avoid the onrush of the one which is going forward"
"the Swiss, in imitation of the ancient systems, for a close (pressed) company of six or eight thousand infantry"
"Whence the Swiss, to avoid this disadvantage, after every three ranks of pikemen place one of halberds"
"They [the swiss]punish with the capital penalty those who because of fear of it either break ranks or by their person give the sign of fear"

[Inquisiteur Morphéus]

some illustrations of the swabian war:


Dochnar Battle (1499 ca 6'000 confederate vs ca 15'000 swabian)


Battle of Hard (1499 from the lucernerchrinik(1513))
The Burgundian war

battle of Grandson 1476 (illustration from Zürcher Schilling1480/84)

the battle of morat 1476 (illustration from Zürcher Schilling 1480/84)

The really impressive panorama painting(10X100m !!!!) of the battle of Morat(1476 against the Charles the Bold). Done in 1893 by Louis Braun. I had the chance to see it in 2002. Just take a look it worth it.
http://www.murtenpanorama.ch/en/home/index.php
Just two randoms details



Other wars


The swiss version of the Battle of Thermopylae but with a victory at end: the battle of Giornico (1478). 175 confederates and 400 allies against ca 10'000 Milanian.(from the lucernerchrinik(1513))

Most here are wiki stuff but I can do some research if the moders want or need it.

[Baron279]

Anything from the 14th and 13th century?

I found some interesting pics in regard of the 14th and 13th century (with the aid of Wille )

Pics from the 14th and 13th century

Pic on a building in Rapperswil (my hometown haha) Governor of Zurich defeats Rapperswil in 1350 Armor, Switzerland, 1369 Armor, Switzerland, 1273 Pic made in Zurich in 1300-1340 pics made in Zurich around 1300 armor in 1225, Switzerland

[Kjertesvein]

Cool images. Is it safe to say those feathers and scarfs from post #10 could be used by officers? Perhaps by patricians/knights in general? They look quite dapper if I may say so myself.

~Wille

[Baron279]

Cool images. Is it safe to say those feathers and scarfs from post #10 could be used by officers? Perhaps by patricians/knights in general? They look quite dapper if I may say so myself.

~Wille

They were mostly patricians/knights but not all the time. The guys with the feathers in the images were leaders or just famous persons.


I want to propose a roster

Swiss Roster

The Swiss roster should be pretty weak in Early because there almost were no Swiss forces at the time. The Swiss environment was ruled by other houses like the Swabs or Habsburg but there were some "Reichsstädte" who were ruled by themselves. The Swiss forces were led by patricians of the houses mentioned above. The Swiss themselves consisted mostly of normal militia. And with time (High) they invented some new military tactics like the "Gewalthaufen" which was formed of heavy pikemen and halberdiers supported by bowmen/crossbowmen. Those new tactics and new armor and weapons granted them some decent victories against several patrician armies. They were mostly supported by cavalry of some sympathizer patricians/lords. In Late, the Swiss became a powerhouse, they defeated the Burgundians (known for their andvanced military equipment) several times, they improved their tactics aswell as their weapons and their armor. In conclusion: The Swiss should have a weak Early roster (mostly milita), a decent High (some heavy infantry and support cav) and a powerhouse Late roster (heavy infantry and decent support cav). Early Peasants bowmen Armed Peasants Crossbow militia Melee militia (spear and sword) Heavy Melee Militia "Normal" halberdiers Knights/Patricians General Images Switzerland, 1260, Spearmen 1300, Switzerland, Melee Inf Cav, 1300 High Heavy Pikes Light Pikes Heavy Halberds Light Melee Inf Crossbowmen Bowmen Patrician Cavalry (Heavy melee) Knights General (Probably heavy Infantry (first Swiss leaders who didn't have to be patricians)) Images Knights 1300-1340 Armor 1369 Late Elite Heavy Halberds (best ingame, as they were so powerfull they were hired by many other factions) Elite heavy Pikes Handgunners Heavy Crossbowmen Heavy Cav (consisted of patricians from the cities) General Images can be seen in the previous posted pics in this thread

[Slytacular]

I'll make a Tier 6 Swiss unit called "Elite Ultra Bad-Ass Halberdier +3."

It'll be so powerful, it even beats longbowmen in range!

[Baron279]

I'll make a Tier 6 Swiss unit called "Elite Ultra Bad-Ass Halberdier +3."

It'll be so powerful, it even beats longbowmen in range!

well... I didn't name them because they are meant to be named like this. I just did this to show how their stats could be and it's just a proposal...
I think it's not a balancing issue as the Swiss would lack various cav and good low tier units. It'd be a big challenge to play them on the campaign map because of their starting position
and their neighbours.

[You_Guess_Who]

How about "Reislaufer Pikes" and "Reislaufer Halberds" then? Did Swiss that fought for their own Cantons can be called Reislaufer too? Or just Mercs?