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Thread: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project - RELEASED!

  1. #1
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default The ACR add-on for Hellenika project - RELEASED!



    Screenshot of Argolid Archers with old uniform theme in Hellenika v1.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Demokritos View Post
    Ladies and gents, here it is, the promised ACR add-on for Hellenika [...]! With this mod of a mod, the goal has simply been to make the graphical part of Hellenika even more interesting. For those who want to jump right to it and check out the result, download via the link...
    HERE
    .
    The add-on has already been updated a few times. Make sure you have the latest version: 0ACRAH1d. See post #29 of this thread for the details and installation read-me of this submod.

    The project has evolved quite a bit since it started. That's why I have moved the original content of the OP into spoilers below. Everything except the pic shown above. This pic is no longer a valid representation of the mod. You find better ones on page 2 of this thread. The Argolid Archers, among many others, now appear as soldiers with less means to purchase colourful pigments with which to dye their clothing.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I thought it could be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to this thing. It has met with approval from a local moderator.

    For those who doesn't know, Alii Colores Romae changes the colours of the uniforms in R2. It basically affects the tunics, but, depending on the unit, sometimes it also alters the colours for the capes, some parts of the shields and armor, the blankets for the horses etc. ACR covers all factions in the vanilla game in this way and on top of that many special units, like all mercenaries and auxiliaries. This includes the various DLCs, e.g. the Wrath of Sparta. The comprehensive Hellenika mod operates on the latter scene. Its developpers wanted to use that part of ACR that works on WoS and I gave them permission for it. And I'm very happy that I did. Not only because it turned out a great combination (as exemplified by the above image of Argioi Toxotai in action), but also because I really like to play this mod! Thanks to its creators, a good game has been elevated to a superb one. Credit to them all!

    Now, Hellenika has a greater scope with regard to factions than WoS. So, in the first version of Hellenika, not all sides appear in ACR colours. The add-on project showcased here seeks to rectify that. It is yet to be decided whether these changes will be incorporated directly into a future version of Hellenika or offered as a separate submod. That decision can wait until the add-on is finished. And it will take some time before that happens. Current ETA of this tweak is end of summer or early fall.

    But the developments will be displayed in this thread. Questions about the themes etc will arise and all visitors are welcome to join the discussion or comment on the proceedings.

    When it comes to factions, new alternatives are planned for Akarnanes, Amphipolis, Chios, Koinon Khalkidikon, Mantineia, Messenia, Mytilene, Opountioi Lokroi, Ozoles Lokroi, and Satrapa Daskyleion. I may move on to some special units later, but for now, these sides are my main concern.

    For this OP, I have four faction alternatives to show. Three look OK to me, while the fourth is in question (edit: not all of the uniform themes shown will make it to the released version of the mod). Here they are:


    Opountioi Lokroi (as already displayed elsewhere)...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Mytilene...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Ozoles Lokroi...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    And then we have the matter of Akarnanes. Unless I'm unaware of some historical fact about this Hellenic tribe, they need both a new uniform theme and a new faction icon. With some inspiration from the current icon (bereft of more historical data), I have this side appearing colour-wise (amidst a lot of new variant meshes or gear from Hellenika, as in the other images) like...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    With a different faction icon, I may change the uniforms (again).

    That's it for starters in this project.
    Last edited by Demokritos; November 21, 2016 at 04:30 PM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  2. #2

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Careful with the colours chosen bro, some (specially the light blue ones) looks unhistorical to me...take in mind that certain colours were just addopted by rich people due to the difficulty on getting them (purple, blue, yellow...)For example mytilene with all blue...I dislike it, I prefer to see more variety inside of a regiment in terms of chiton/exomis colours. Hegemonia mod (the R2 one) does this perfectly.

    On the other hand I would like to see if you can change some general's cloack colour to a purple one (considered the richest colour due to the difficulty again) .

  3. #3
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Good feedback, TB.

    Yes, I'm aware of the colour issue in principle. That's why there are no purple used in ACR except for elite units and generals. With other colours, however, it seems more uncertain about the availability. Here's what's been said about Roman colours, for example. Note that they knew a cheap way of obtaining both blue and yellow (woad and weld plants, respectively). But I must confess that my knowledge of the situation for Greece in this period of history is limited. That is the case for many illustrators of Greek appearances at the time, apparently...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Etc.
    Do you have a good source for authentic Greek colours or historical hues for a given Hellenic faction represented in Hellenika?

    In the Mytilene case, maybe a better alternative would be to have the colours in reverse frequency, i.e. the blue being used the least often. I can fix that. Show later.
    Last edited by Demokritos; April 29, 2016 at 04:56 PM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  4. #4

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    I would love to see some more info on use of purple since what I read is a bit contradictory. Some of philosophers of the time, namely Plato, make a strong case against it as a symbol of wealth and decadence in general and consequently - of persian oppression. On the other hand, it finds common use as a suitable offering to gods. And in some cases is worn by statesmen as an open demonstration of power.
    Purple becomes widespread in Hellenistic period, but I'm uncertain as of earlier times.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    I will sum my argument up in a single statement:
    First rule of an ancient greek reenactor: Never take modern illustrators depictions for references about the colours.

    Hellenic times were richer times for greeks and romans are romans not greeks. This is an earlier period mate, but as a brief: Elites should wear the richest colours and medium and levies more earthy ones (browns and so on) M@x did a great job here but he faced the faction tied colours and that's all I want to change plus the purple case.

    Also I feel green is the forgotten colour by anyone...

  6. #6

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    PS: I'm wondering if like in Shogun 2, the color mask could have different levels of opacity...you put the opacity to, saying 75% or 33% instead of 100%, then you get a nuance of the colors.

    PS2: the Acarnanian sheep fur has a beautiful texture, bravo!

  7. #7

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Vinc that opacity idea is a very nice one indeed..I dont know about Rome 2 sadly.

  8. #8
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Quote Originally Posted by Furgon View Post
    I would love to see some more info on use of purple since what I read is a bit contradictory. Some of philosophers of the time, namely Plato, make a strong case against it as a symbol of wealth and decadence in general and consequently - of persian oppression. On the other hand, it finds common use as a suitable offering to gods. And in some cases is worn by statesmen as an open demonstration of power.
    Purple becomes widespread in Hellenistic period, but I'm uncertain as of earlier times.
    I don't know that much, but enough to say that it depends on what purple-ish hue we're talking about. The most costly type of purple was known as "Tyrian purple" or "royal purple". It was produced from certain shells and is mentioned in texts dating as far back as about 1600 BC. The thing is, many other hues of purple could be produced by taking only a little of the expensive sort and then mix it with cheaper pigments or other material in various ways. And then we have shades of purple that were based on a different source altogether. From lichen came orchil or "poor man's purple", which was known to (some) ancient Greeks, too. Similar cases can be made for many other "principal" colours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    I will sum my argument up in a single statement:
    First rule of an ancient greek reenactor: Never take modern illustrators depictions for references about the colours.
    That is tantamount to claiming or taking for granted that modern illustrators never get their research right about the colours they're using or apply that knowledge to their illustrations. Cannot buy that rule right off the bat. I need more historical sources. Note the importance of describing the colours in question properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Hellenic times were richer times for greeks and romans are romans not greeks. This is an earlier period mate, but as a brief: Elites should wear the richest colours and medium and levies more earthy ones (browns and so on) M@x did a great job here but he faced the faction tied colours and that's all I want to change plus the purple case.
    With the Roman example, I was thinking both that Romans could have imported some of their dye material or dye-techniques from Greece and that there could be cheap variants of any principal colour used by Greeks, too (the cheap just coming out a different hue of blue, for example, than the blue hue based on an expensive source).

    Anyway, I have already adopted that colouring principle for ACR, insofar that I'm aware of exactly which hues came from expensive material. This means that not all forms of purple, for example, are excluded from the mainstream units. In any case, in order to have varying colour range for the units of all factions, you need to expand on the unit_variants_colours table greatly. That's a lot of extra work. ACR contains about 800 of these extra uniform themes, which evolved over a long time, but little of it is in operation for WoS and Hellenika imported even less. Currently, I'm considering the idea to enlarge that file for Hellenika, but reserve it for the mercenaries. Maybe adding the faction-specific AOR units, but then only so far as to make them the slightest distinguishable from the original owners by having the same colours but in different distribution. At most perhaps including the general's units in truly special colours.

    BTW, setting one specific colour to always hold for a specific part of the uniform like the cape is not possible in my modding area, which deals with text files holding RGB data that the game engine applies to the textures in a predefined pattern. In this type of moddíng, three colours can be changed and the exact distribution seems to differ each time the unit in question is rendered in-game, although the frequency of a given colour at the spot is the same. So if a general with a cape is given the colours of (primary) white, (secondary) blue, and (tertiary) purple, for example, then on ten different occasions where his unit are seen, in 3 cases he might wear white tunic with blue cape and purple shield, 3 other cases a white tunic with purple cape and blue shield, 1 case a blue tunic with white cape and purple shield, 1 case a blue tunic with purple cape and white shield etc. That's how they accomplished maximum variation with minimum data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Also I feel green is the forgotten colour by anyone...
    From the top of my head, I can recall that Hellenika imported at least two uniform themes from ACR with green it: Athens and Byzantion (plus Persia, of course). Checking the factions in WoS, I seem to remember that Kydonia and Korkyra have some sort of green in them, too. I had planned making Mantineia a sixth case, if no better idea comes along. Maybe Amphipolis, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by VINC.XXIII View Post
    PS: I'm wondering if like in Shogun 2, the color mask could have different levels of opacity...you put the opacity to, saying 75% or 33% instead of 100%, then you get a nuance of the colors.
    [...]
    Good tip. Might be useful in the future for me, if the colour mask R2 works the same way as in S2. But none of the mods that I've created so far work on the textures (including colour masks) directly.


    @Phalangitis - What's your plan for Akarnanes with regard to faction icon etc? Do they have a historic connection to Etruria and/or Epirus?
    Last edited by Demokritos; May 01, 2016 at 05:12 AM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  9. #9

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Quote Originally Posted by Demokritos View Post
    BTW, setting one specific colour to always hold for a specific part of the uniform like the cape is not possible in my modding area,
    M@x created specific generals, always same looking. That's the way I would like to see things done for the purple generals.

    From the top of my head, I can recall that Hellenika imported at least two uniform themes from ACR with green it: Athens and Byzantion (plus Persia, of course). Checking the factions in WoS, I seem to remember that Kydonia and Korkyra have some sort of green in them, too. I had planned making Mantineia a sixth case, if no better idea comes along. Maybe Amphipolis, too.
    That's exactly what I didn't meant. I don''t want faction colours as it is totally unrealistic (except for the famous read for spartans, that's the only exception acceptable) but the colour distributed all around the factions.

    @Phalangitis - What's your plan for Akarnanes with regard to faction icon etc? Do they have a historic connection to Etruria and/or Epirus?
    lol What's with that question mate? No connection due to the symbol, the symbol is a famous greek mithology beast, that's all. Honestly, I don't care much about the faction icons BUT I would like to see new ones or at least the existing ones 3D like, that would be beautiful to see...

    Do you have any plan on this matter mate?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    M@x created specific generals, always same looking. That's the way I would like to see things done for the purple generals.
    Seems like you misunderstand the technical side here. There are two ways of altering the uniform colours in this game: you either change the db files holding certain RBG values or edit the uniform textures directly. For the former, you need only PFM; for the latter, you need programs like GIMP or Photoshop. Editing the textures directly makes the changes stick. M@x is working that way. I have yet to do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    That's exactly what I didn't meant. I don''t want faction colours as it is totally unrealistic (except for the famous read for spartans, that's the only exception acceptable) but the colour distributed all around the factions.
    Yes, there were little in the way of real uniforms for a given faction back then. That's why ACR is probably the only recolouring mod for R2 out there that offers some colour variety in the armies. But, again, there's a technical side to this. The game engine asks for data to faction colours, so we must provide something there. The only way to get around this limitation is to create a new entry for every type of unit you want to differ from the factional theme and you have to do this for every faction that you want share a given set of colours. If you work on the db files, you're restricted to a choice of three colours for a given type of unit. So if the historical Hellenic palette consists of, say, 60 different colors and hues, and you really want to distribute this palette across all factions, then you need to create at least 20 new entries for each faction in the db files, each entry covering one type of unit and three of the colours in the palette. If you want some types of units within a given faction share one set of colours larger than 3 from the palette, then you need to create new variants of those types of units (e.g. toxotai variant 1, toxotai variant 2, peltastai variant 1, peltastai variant 2 etc) in a number corresponding to the set of colours. For a mod featuring some 30 factions, we're talking about hundreds of new entries in the db files here, many themes of which you'd like to test different versions of first and check in game before settling for one of the options. When editing the textures directly, you can create greater colour variety within a given unit and save on the number of versions for that type of unit to cover the palette. But the amount of work required in both ways of modding to really do away with "factional themes" is beyond most people.

    I started modding because I was too dissatisfied with the unrealistic colours on the uniforms in vanilla game. But in the quest for greater realism, I must draw the line somewhere in time spent on the matter (researching and working out more satisfactory solutions). After all, it's only a game. Anyone wishing for more should take up the modding glove him- or herself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    lol What's with that question mate? No connection due to the symbol, the symbol is a famous greek mithology beast, that's all. Honestly, I don't care much about the faction icons BUT I would like to see new ones or at least the existing ones 3D like, that would be beautiful to see...
    My question was raised from the fact that currently, the icon for Akarnanes in Hellenika is identical in shape and colours to the faction icon of the Etruscan League in vanilla, and the uniform theme for at least AOR Akarnanes peltastai identical to that of Epirus in ACR (and Epeiros in Hellenika). Thought you might have a historical reason for this. If not, some change to the icon and main uniform theme would be desirable, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Do you have any plan on this matter mate?
    I share your wishes in this department, TB, but I'm afraid it's too much work for me to fulfil them. I have to settle for something less. This may include not learning the ropes for Photoshop modding. In that case, I'll stick to factional themes with a little variation in certain units.

    You know, one way to see this is that, instead of having all factions in game sporting all colours in the Hellenic palette, each faction is made to represent one part of this palette and together they represent the whole palette.

    I made a similar decision to simulate greater realism in my ACC mod for S2. If all clans were to wear their most common colour for armour, then all clans of the game would have to have black armour (as factional armour colour). But this would give an unrealistic impression on the game battlefield also. The battles were fought out with samurais in a big variety of colours for armour on all sides of the fence. So I gave the clans colours that together represent the historical Japanese palette (with consideration to the knowledge that some clans often wore certain colours). In this way, when the clans mix on the battlefield, the effect is an impression of greater realism, and the more clans are involved in a given battle, the stronger that impression.
    Last edited by Demokritos; May 01, 2016 at 07:52 AM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  11. #11

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    I understood the ACR mechanic perfectly mate, what I don't want to see is levy poor damn archers wearing either blue, green, red or purple clothes( exomis or chiton)/ chlamys (cloack). Just earthy colours as they are the cheapest ones (aka crappy ones for crappy tier people lol). Got me?

  12. #12
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Like I said, I share your view on that matter, TB: poor units should wear cheap gear and garments (dyed with cheap pigments, if any pigment at all). I'm just trying to get my point across that it's not easy to accomplish that thing with these game files. I have neither the energy nor the time to do it. At least not for all factions involved. The fartherest I can imagine to stretch it at this point, given enough time (more than a year), is to cover the six playable factions in Hellenika in this way. The rest would have to do with simple factional themes (except for Epirus and Macedon, perhaps, since I've already covered this ground for them in ACR, though not imported into Hellenika). But I'm not ready to make any promises on that account.

    Check out all units of Sparta in custom battles with only ACR installed as modification. I think that will demonstrate my stand in this matter perfectly. It required the creation of 25 special uniform themes for the faction in question, each after a good deal of research and a lot of testing to see how the tweaks came out under the influence of the shadings applied on the unit textures and different lighting conditions in game. Don't remember how long it took for me to finish the side, but I ran out of modding juice before reaching my goals for ACR and forgot about this game for a long while.

    Technically, one can override the faction-specific colours for the units on the battlefield completely in the manner which M@x already has done partially. If you study some units in Hellenika carefully, you'll notice that not all soldiers wear some colour at any spot as dictated by the db files for colours. This can be done for the whole lot. It can also be done through the "ACR mechanic" (which there are already examples of in my mod), but not with such variety that is possible with the other recolouring method (that requires a hand with Photoshop or equivalent program). If you have the energy and time to do it.

    So if you really want to make all factions in Hellenika appear the way you're pressing for, TB, then you should take up modding in this field yourself. "Don't have enough time", etc? Well, join the club!
    Last edited by Demokritos; May 02, 2016 at 01:09 PM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  13. #13

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    I know its a lazy design, however, I would just duplicate the brown/beige/broken-white values for most of levy units in unit_variants_colours_tables if the goal its to have all levy units with simple colors. Meanwhile the officer will be affected by values defined in faction_uniform_colours_tables.

    Its how I did for my accensi roman units, all of them(slingers, javelinmen) have these simple colors, greek skirmishers(psiloi) have almost the same color values, same goes for ligurian levies...etc

  14. #14

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Quote Originally Posted by VINC.XXIII View Post
    I know its a lazy design, however, I would just duplicate the brown/beige/broken-white values for most of levy units in unit_variants_colours_tables if the goal its to have all levy units with simple colors. Meanwhile the officer will be affected by values defined in faction_uniform_colours_tables.

    Its how I did for my accensi roman units, all of them(slingers, javelinmen) have these simple colors, greek skirmishers(psiloi) have almost the same color values, same goes for ligurian levies...etc
    I'm dying for testing your mod with hellenika phalanx

  15. #15
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Quote Originally Posted by VINC.XXIII View Post
    I know its a lazy design, however, I would just duplicate the brown/beige/broken-white values for most of levy units in unit_variants_colours_tables if the goal its to have all levy units with simple colors. Meanwhile the officer will be affected by values defined in faction_uniform_colours_tables.

    Its how I did for my accensi roman units, all of them(slingers, javelinmen) have these simple colors, greek skirmishers(psiloi) have almost the same color values, same goes for ligurian levies...etc
    I appreciate the thought, VINC, and I thank you for it, but that idea has already occurred to me (you can get the officers to look exactly the same, too, just by adding another row to duplicate; but then you really need the unrealistically large unit flags to differentiate between the lot) and it kind of goes against my artistic grain. And I think I prefer some variety in colours between different factions before some quasi-historical interpretation of the situation back then that they - the poorest soldiers and units in the Hellenistic world - should all look like clones.

    But, hey, I'm all for free choice, if others are willing to do their part (now that I came to think about that). Here we can open up the possibility of having more than one submod and offer different solutions in colours. And for the clone version, I could happily delegate the job to TB. Are you up for the work, TB, if I teach you how to do it? Once you know which colours you want, the duplicating is technically an easy thing to do.

    Seems to me that you now have a chance to make sure that you find Hellenika in an "acceptable" state on this account. There would be no rush to execute the task. You'd be free to take your own time with it, when the project has reached the stage that it can be divided like that: one version containing clones among all factions, the other offering more colour and diversity. This assuming that you'd like the colour changes that are in store for the richer units, which could be copied over to a new file where some changes for the poorer units can be done. Otherwise, you could start implementing VINC's suggestion right away, producing a submod before me.

    If the answer is negative or not forthcoming at all, then I guess the matter is not that important, after all. Either way would be perfectly fine with me.
    Last edited by Demokritos; May 04, 2016 at 06:08 AM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  16. #16

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    It amazing how much time you guys put into this fantastic mod! The details. Details. Details.

    IMO the clone idea for the little people is a very good idea, but y'all can decide that.

    You two should get some beers and relax for night. +1 to both

  17. #17
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Thanks for your opinion, JCB206.

    Well, turned out that I'll get less time for this project than I thought. But I hope to finish the aforementioned factions in new colours plus the five merc units, at least.

    Latest faction to get a re-coloured OK from me:

    Mantineis hoplitai...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Again, the mod will not be to the taste of all, so it will only be offered as an optional download and installment.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  18. #18

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Demo we all know you as one of the best colour experts in the forum, and we thank you firstly for your permission using your initial ACR at Hellenika and for your will to take the colours at Hellenika even further! Surely you will make a wonderful work!

    About the Akarnanes faction icon, we just couldn't find some symbol strong connecting to them, so a generic Greek mythological creature was picked.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Thanks for your continuous effords to improve visually the mod Demokretos. + rep.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The ACR add-on for Hellenika project

    Good

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