Medieval Kingdoms Total War: First Public Build Announcement

[Melvasul]

No Venetia :/
nevermind

[Malcolm]

Scotland will be created eventually. They're just not made yet, and I would like to do them some justice since they're always depicted incorrectly on media.

That's good to hear ! I have a masters degree from Glasgow in Scottish History (the focus of which was the medieval period) so if you ever need any advice I'd be more than happy to help.

[redz]

Great news ty.

[Slytacular]

@malcolm, my immediate question that I have been trying to find an answer to was whether loose yellow/saffron shirts were a totally aristocratic exclusive, or would people of a lower class imitate saffron shirts to better stand out in Medieval Scotland as a potential aristocrat? This question is similar to the nobility wears purple because they can afford purple.

[Alexius.Dejan]

Great news, congrats to you guys!

Damn, i wish my graphics card havent died a few days ago

[Malcolm]

@malcolm, my immediate question that I have been trying to find an answer to was whether loose yellow/saffron shirts were a totally aristocratic exclusive, or would people of a lower class imitate saffron shirts to better stand out in Medieval Scotland as a potential aristocrat? This question is similar to the nobility wears purple because they can afford purple.

It is a tricky question because for the highlands in particular there isn't really anything to go by when it comes to medieval clothing. If my memory serves me correct the Scots in the lowland areas of Scotland would most likely have dressed in a similar fashion to their counterparts in England. I don't remember coming across anything suggesting the Scots had taken to wearing anything resembling a saffron shirt in the lower sections of society.

Scottish medieval fashion is a particularly touchy topic for some people (don't mention kilts!) In the highlands there is also no mention of saffron shirts that I came across. If you are tackling the kilt issue I wouldn't worry too much about it whether you decide to include them or not. Even if they were worn it is unlikely we would know about it though the highlanders did wear tartan plaids as overcoats. If they had a tunic on under this it is hard to see how this couldn't be mistaken for the more traditional view of a kilt that appears in the late 1500's, particularly if they had a belt on to hold it all in place.

Sorry, I went off an wee rant there. Short answer: no evidence of ordinary Scots wearing saffron shirts that I can recall (in either highland or lowland).

[Slytacular]

Well if you've played Age of Empires 2, you might recognize these chess pieces. What is your opinion on these? http://www.warfare.altervista.org/12...en-warders.htm
If it is what it seems like, there is a use of the leine and tartan overcoats?

I have a favorite website that I visit that host some pretty cool actual medieval illustrations and other chunks of art. I've also done some more reading, but it seems like the leine was used quite a lot. Some Irish and Welsh illustrations also provide some similar characteristics like the Galloglaich http://www.warfare.altervista.org/13..._Roscommon.htm and this fella http://www.warfare.altervista.org/14/Effigy-Oronsay.htm

[Malcolm]

Well if you've played Age of Empires 2, you might recognize these chess pieces. What is your opinion on these? http://www.warfare.altervista.org/12...en-warders.htm
If it is what it seems like, there is a use of the leine and tartan overcoats?

I have a favorite website that I visit that host some pretty cool actual medieval illustrations and other chunks of art. I've also done some more reading, but it seems like the leine was used quite a lot. Some Irish and Welsh illustrations also provide some similar characteristics like the Galloglaich http://www.warfare.altervista.org/13..._Roscommon.htm and this fella http://www.warfare.altervista.org/14/Effigy-Oronsay.htm

Yeah I have seen (and I am very fond of) the Lewis Chessmen though it is likely that these were crafted in Scandinavia, probably Norway. They ended up in the Isles probably in the same manner that most hoards are lost. The shields particularly give away that they are most likely depicting Scandinavian soldiers. What appears to be tartan is probably more likely to be a depiction of chain mail. That said I could be wrong.

I think it would be a pretty safe bet styling the highland Scots in a similar fashion to the Irish. I am not saying they would have been the same, as soon as records begin there are pretty staggering differences between the cultures of those in Northern Ireland and those on the west coast of Scotland.

Like I say, it is a difficult topic because it is all speculation. I wouldn't let it keep you up at nights as there is no definite answer to these things and I am sure most Scots would be impressed that you have put this much thought into it (more than CA seem to bother). If you want to make it interesting, I would give the Scottish highland units a lot of similarities to the Irish and some similarities as well to the Scandinavian Norse. Throw the tartan on top of some of these units and you will be as close as we can get with the evidence around.

A lot of people get annoyed when they see misrepresentations (take the clothes in Braveheart as good example) and they are quick to point out what is factually incorrect. The problem is that none of it can be proved to be factually incorrect. You are clearly on the right track but I wouldn't be worried about giving yourself a bit of a licence to see what looks good and convincing and unique and just go with it.

[Slytacular]

Eh, well Scots are a bit easier to research and speculate than the Norse, since prejudice in the British Isles have been a favorite topic in United States since the foundation of the colonies. Weren't Scots pretty close to the Norse people on a consistency? The Orkney Islands people aren't far from Scotland shores. It wouldn't be surprising to see some kind of cross over of arms and armour. My opinion on the kilt is that it was an evolution of dress that was prominent in the 16th century onward with potential prototypes introduced in the 15th century. Scottish clothing and traditions seem to always remind me of my studies about Roman Britain, and it makes me wonder if tartan was also a pattern in typical English clothing as well?

Honestly, I find it very difficult to differ the British Isles people in the Medieval Ages other than the aristocratic Gaels enjoy wearing no pants, buys saffron, and seems to purchase their weapons and armour from anywhere but the English.

[Hermes33]

Can't believe I only just found out about this haha! Just wanted to say a sincere THANKS for even trying to do it!

However it turns out, huge respect to everyone involved!!!!

I'm just one of the many who (naively) assumed we'd already be playing Medieval 3 years ago; still playing the Stainless Steel mod to this day.

Looking forward to it

[Malcolm]

Eh, well Scots are a bit easier to research and speculate than the Norse, since prejudice in the British Isles have been a favorite topic in United States since the foundation of the colonies. Weren't Scots pretty close to the Norse people on a consistency? The Orkney Islands people aren't far from Scotland shores. It wouldn't be surprising to see some kind of cross over of arms and armour. My opinion on the kilt is that it was an evolution of dress that was prominent in the 16th century onward with potential prototypes introduced in the 15th century. Scottish clothing and traditions seem to always remind me of my studies about Roman Britain, and it makes me wonder if tartan was also a pattern in typical English clothing as well?

Honestly, I find it very difficult to differ the British Isles people in the Medieval Ages other than the aristocratic Gaels enjoy wearing no pants, buys saffron, and seems to purchase their weapons and armour from anywhere but the English.

You could well be right. I think I agree with you on the evolution of dress. I would imagine that the highlanders were probably wearing what looks like a kilt well before the 1500's (being a plaid to cover themselves and keep warm but simply a belt in there to hold the place). In the late 1500's I would imagine that this had become the full outfit whereas before it was simply to cover their clothes underneath. That's why I have never been quite as annoyed as others when games like Medieval 2 TW put the kilt into highland units (though it does annoy me that there was no plaid as well!).

On tartan, I really don't know if it was worn by other peoples pre-medieval. I was taught that there is an arch in Syria that depicts a Caledonian slave and the reason they know this is due to the fact that he has tartan trousers on. That would suggest to me that the other peoples generally didn't wear it but that wasn't something I researched in any depth.

The problem with the Picts in the pre-medieval period is that we genuinely have no idea what their customs were. My dissertation (as I would argue) showed that actually much of what became Scottish practice after the formation of Alba was Pictish (particularly mass hunting of deer that doubled as some form of military practice). This continued right into the 1800's. It is seeming more likely from all the evidence that it was in fact the Picts that united Scotland and not the Scots of Dal Riata. They called themselves Alba (the Pictish name for themselves) but others called them Scotland because they spoke Gaelic. This was largely due to the religious influence over a long period of time.

Sorry, I just realised I summed up my dissertation there!

[Choki]

omg! Cant wait. Amazing news!

[nopinks123]

FINALLY!!!

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Scotland will be created eventually. They're just not made yet, and I would like to do them some justice since they're always depicted incorrectly on media.

O! very good, does that mean we could be looking at the Lordship of Ireland being in the game also?? Just like Malcolm am studying History mostly Medieval in University College Cork, so I could be a help if you guys choice to do so.

[Willhelm123]

On tartan, I really don't know if it was worn by other peoples pre-medieval. I was taught that there is an arch in Syria that depicts a Caledonian slave and the reason they know this is due to the fact that he has tartan trousers on. That would suggest to me that the other peoples generally didn't wear it but that wasn't something I researched in any depth.

Well that's a stretch, most ancient Celts wore tartan/plaid like patterns, that slave is most likely to be a regular Celt. The arch is actually in Morocco, here is a drawing of the relief. I just watched the video, they keep calling it a Caledonian warrior, with certainty, from the checkered trousers, but that in no way means Caledonian over any other Celts. The video also claims its the earliest evidence of this sort of pattern which is untrue, the statue dates from the 2nd century AD, fragments of plaid cloth have been found from 1000 years before that. I wouldn't trust BBC documentaries that much.

[Slytacular]

O! very good, does that mean we could be looking at the Lordship of Ireland being in the game also?? Just like Malcolm am studying History mostly Medieval in University College Cork, so I could be a help if you guys choice to do so.

You must unite all cattle herds in Ireland and drive away the English before you conquer the world (roughly less than one turn).

I think my question is whether it would be sinful to equip the Irish kerns and spear cavalry with chainmail armour? I haven't put a lot of time into researching the armies of Ireland yet (I'll end up reading about it today). Any suggestion on troop composition would be nice (tier 1=1212 to 1350; tier 2=1350 to 1420; tier 3=1420 to 1500). I get the impression that 13th century Irish armies would have very professional light troops.

[Teutonic]

When watching one of the videos on Youtube (from March, I think) the guy said that the cavalry in the mod was "broken", which is why they had only 4 cav units per army.

I wonder if the situation is still the same for the first release?

[Slytacular]

Cavalry stats are fixed. Watch the latest videos and they'll address that change.

[altunenberg]

Finally without the Crown of Navarre.......

I will get the mod anyway!

[PhilipO'Hayda]

You must unite all cattle herds in Ireland and drive away the English before you conquer the world (roughly less than one turn).

I think my question is whether it would be sinful to equip the Irish kerns and spear cavalry with chainmail armour? I haven't put a lot of time into researching the armies of Ireland yet (I'll end up reading about it today). Any suggestion on troop composition would be nice (tier 1=1212 to 1350; tier 2=1350 to 1420; tier 3=1420 to 1500). I get the impression that 13th century Irish armies would have very professional light troops.

haha I'll write you up everything you need to know on the 9th of May the following Monday haha, yes the Irish had chain-mail since 300BC with la tene culture and Ireland was mostly independent for the Medieval period,Because Irish lords would be with the King or Queen of England or Scotland, mostly down to there mood, most of the time they did what every they wanted. So calling it the Lordship of Ireland from 1177 and 1542 is a bong on name. This is one of the reasons why Ireland has more castles then any were else in Europe the second reason being that most Spanish,English and Scottish Cannons got stuck in the mud very easy in Ireland. Also given that Templars and Hospitallers were very active in Ireland it is very sad that Irish medieval history can be knock to the side. But with the closest Kings of Ireland being the Fitzgerald family it's easy to do.Unlike Scotland which is united under a King.
other then Dublin by Queen Elizabeth's time as the only real English land, Ireland is not really taken over till 1690 and I don't think your mod is going that far.
I'll cut my paper work for you in to 3 parts which is Irish units that were in the Scottish war of independents both Ireland being in Edward the Bruce Campaign in Ireland and battle of Dysert o'Dea, making the very Gaelic units
2nd part getting work from The Statutes of Kilkenny, 1366 era were the Normans become "More Irish than the Irish themselves" making Hiberno-Norman units and then finish up with
3rd The Gaelic resurgence Were we can see more of the start of late Gaelic units.