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Thread: Turkey takes over property of Christian minorities

  1. #121

    Default Re: Turkey takes over 6 Christian churches as state property

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    First time I hear that it usually used to indicate importance, and frankly doesn't sound correct since I've heard the phrase being used to denote chronology quite often.
    To use a phrase you so much love to use: Are you lying to cover that you didn't read my post?

    (I know you don't lie, but that's how infuriating it is to be called liar over and over for nothing)
    Nope. That's how that phrase is usually used in English. If you really need to check a dictionary go ahead...


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Oh, forgot about that. Sorry. I have the following: 6 churches + the monastery + rhetoric about Hagia Sophia in the span of a few months. Yes, they're too many.
    So, you have 3 examples. That's too many? Me asking that is a highlight of the ridiculousness of your position. There are over 200 active churches in Turkey and somehow government temporarily shutting down a few of them after need for repairs arising due to environmental or extraordinary situations like fight with terror, not being even over 10, not being taken over for demolition or anything like that, means that the situation about the overall presence of Christianity in Turkey is worrying... Right...


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Yeap, Dromokaites showed the church far earlier in the thread. It was restored and returned.
    However, 2016 Turkey is more authoritarian than 2011 Turkey.
    Yet, you can't demonstrate how is was more authoritarian within the context of what we're discussing here.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No evidence but enough indications to make me uneasy. It's too many coincidences for a few months Setekh. Sumela is built in that mountain for ages. Hagia Sophia wasn't used for prayers for decades aside from the small place dedicated to Islamic worship within it. And yes, seizing 6 churches as state property.
    Sigh... It's not the first time the Sumela monastery was closed for business. In fact, it was AKP who opened it religious services in 2010. The government have been paying for repairs since then. So, no, the idea that the monastery was there for ages is not a valid argument. The falling rocks are a symptom of erosion caused by many environmental factors, one is which earthquakes, which the government hardly has a control over.

    Double sigh... Hagia Sophia is still not open for prayers. You can't go in and start praying. Not that the guards will arrest you, but that the building is not equipped or used for that. There are no carpets on the floor. The pictures of the Christian angels on the walls are not covered. The small prayer room in the compound is not dedicated to Islamic worship. It was built to accommodate Christian and Muslim workers that were working on restoration jobs in the building.

    Triple sigh... You already know why the 6 churches were taken over by the government. As I said before, one of them was even opened in recent times with the help of the state. Of course, you can't address the fact that you're partially whining about buildings that were opened by the help of the state.


    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/cult...e-message.html

    http://www.economist.com/news/europe...mosqueand-back

    I admire your willingness to seriously argue using common sense alhoon.
    Oh, I love when it gets way too ironic... That's aside, you talk of common sense and then try to ground the claim one what someone else says. If the idea of common sense made sense within this context you wouldn't really need to quote a random historian (who is an art historian to be precise and an archaeologist).

    The average Turk hardly considers Hagia Sophia as a sign of superiority of Islam over Christianity. It ultimately symbolizes the conquest of the city. There are other structures that symbolizes that claim of superiority. The Blue mosque or mostly Süleymaniye mosque to be precise. These were specifically constructed to rival Hagia Sophia.
    Last edited by Iskar; October 29, 2016 at 08:19 PM. Reason: continuity
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  2. #122
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Turkey takes over 6 Christian churches as state property

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Nope. That's how that phrase is usually used in English. If you really need to check a dictionary go ahead...
    Meh, didn't know that. Not a native English speaker. Still I thought it was apparent from my post that I used it chronologically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    So, you have 3 examples. That's too many? Me asking that is a highlight of the ridiculousness of your position. There are over 200 active churches in Turkey and somehow government temporarily shutting down a few of them after need for repairs arising due to environmental or extraordinary situations like fight with terror, not being even over 10, not being taken over for demolition or anything like that, means that the situation about the overall presence of Christianity in Turkey is worrying... Right...
    Yes, 6/200 + 1 monastery are too many. If Trump was president and USA government seized 3% of the active mosques in USA "for repairs" you wouldn't be calling ridiculous the fear that there was something more afoot.
    Add to that the rhetoric about Hagia Sophia and the recent clampdown and shift to Authoritarianism in Turkey (with the "coup" and the purge) and you could see why I am concerned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Sigh... It's not the first time the Sumela monastery was closed for business. In fact, it was AKP who opened it religious services in 2010.
    2010 was not 2016. Turkey is, as I've said before, far more authoritarian in 2016 than it was in even 2015. There's been a shift towards more and more authoritarian measures since 2014, that are clearly in the open now with the purge. And yes, I'm worried the perpetrators of this purge would have the Christian minority targeted as scapegoats or use the closing of our religious places as a smoke screen.
    Nothing of what you say so far makes me feel easier (with the exception of the Hagia Sophia, see below, and that just makes me feel a tiny bit more at ease).


    Double sigh... Hagia Sophia is still not open for prayers. You can't go in and start praying. Not that the guards will arrest you, but that the building is not equipped or used for that. There are no carpets on the floor. The pictures of the Christian angels on the walls are not covered. The small prayer room in the compound is not dedicated to Islamic worship. It was built to accommodate Christian and Muslim workers that were working on restoration jobs in the building.
    The small place of worship for both of us, is good and considerate. I'm glad that Hagia Sophia is not used for prayers (yet) and it's the one part that makes me feel a tiny bit more at ease.
    However, there's a shift towards turning it back to Mosque. There are people pressing for it and there were prayers held there last year that would be increased this year to five.

    Triple sigh... You already know why the 6 churches were taken over by the government. As I said before, one of them was even opened in recent times with the help of the state. Of course, you can't address the fact that you're partially whining about buildings that were opened by the help of the state.
    I addressed that many times already: 2011 was not 2016. And I know the official story about them being taken over for repairs. I don't know when and if they'll be returned back to us or if they'll become state property for ever, even if they open up as places for our worship. It is a matter of trust for the Turkish government that both I and a lot of Christians in Turkey lack.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  3. #123

    Default Re: Turkey takes over 6 Christian churches as state property

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Yes, 6/200 + 1 monastery are too many. If Trump was president and USA government seized 3% of the active mosques in USA "for repairs" you wouldn't be calling ridiculous the fear that there was something more afoot.
    Add to that the rhetoric about Hagia Sophia and the recent clampdown and shift to Authoritarianism in Turkey (with the "coup" and the purge) and you could see why I am concerned.
    If Trump had a history of using state funds to repair and reopen mosques for religious service, yes, I would point out how ridiculous it is. Did the government shut down for good, or destroyed, a church since they became more authoritative? No. In fact, the state even gave a new church permit in İstanbul in the last year. So much for authoritarianism against Christians...


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    2010 was not 2016. Turkey is, as I've said before, far more authoritarian in 2016 than it was in even 2015. There's been a shift towards more and more authoritarian measures since 2014, that are clearly in the open now with the purge. And yes, I'm worried the perpetrators of this purge would have the Christian minority targeted as scapegoats or use the closing of our religious places as a smoke screen.
    Nothing of what you say so far makes me feel easier (with the exception of the Hagia Sophia, see below, and that just makes me feel a tiny bit more at ease).
    Whether you feel at ease or not means nothing here. You're not even addressing what I'm saying. You're just hiding behind this arbitrary difference between 2010 and 2016.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The small place of worship for both of us, is good and considerate. I'm glad that Hagia Sophia is not used for prayers (yet) and it's the one part that makes me feel a tiny bit more at ease.
    However, there's a shift towards turning it back to Mosque. There are people pressing for it and there were prayers held there last year that would be increased this year to five.
    You have Greek politicians starting a campaign to turn it back to a church and you're whining here because Turkey assigned an honorary imam to the building while the building is being continued to be used as a museum...


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I addressed that many times already: 2011 was not 2016. And I know the official story about them being taken over for repairs. I don't know when and if they'll be returned back to us or if they'll become state property for ever, even if they open up as places for our worship. It is a matter of trust for the Turkish government that both I and a lot of Christians in Turkey lack.
    And again, not addressing what I said. This is not an issue of lack of trust. This is an issue of bigotry.
    The Armenian Issue

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Turkey takes over 6 Christian churches as state property

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Whether you feel at ease or not means nothing here. You're not even addressing what I'm saying.

    And again, not addressing what I said. This is not an issue of lack of trust. This is an issue of bigotry.
    Yeaaaah, you see, I don't have to keep answering the same questions again and again or addressing whatever you raise as a point in a way that you would find satisfactory. I've answered your questions and I won't repeat myself. Read my answers again and that would again be my answer. Whether you consider it bigotry, non-answers or not good enough answers, those will be my answers.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  5. #125
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Turkey takes over 6 Christian churches as state property

    According to this (kinda biased) article, Turkey confiscated some 50 religious properties from the Syriac Orthodox Church, one of the oldest Christian groups in the area. The small community is afraid that losing some of the oldest Christian monuments to the Turkish state would endanger the minority's survival.
    "“We went to sleep one night, and we woke up the next morning to see what was ours the night before no longer belonged to us,” Kuryakos Ergun, chairman of the Mor Gabriel Monastery Foundation,"

    The confiscated assets include two of the oldest functioning monasteries in the world.

    Turkish authorities claimed the deeds have lapsed, but it is unclear (from the article) while the community wasn't given the choice to renew those deeds. Appeals were fired against the confiscation but they were rejected by a commission tasked with liquidating the seized assets.

    If anyone knows what reason Turkish officials gave for the act I would like to hear it, cause the article doesn't state any.

    NOTE: I am interested in discussion about the situation, possible input for why the Turkish state did that etc. While I am certainly against the move and consider it unfair and a suppression of freedom of religion etc, I want to discuss it like a grown adult where we can agree or disagree in a respectful tone. Please no over-the-top comments and attacks on various countries (including Turkey) as they're not helpful to the discussion.
    Last edited by alhoon; July 08, 2017 at 04:10 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

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