Turkey takes over property of Christian minorities

[alhoon]

Antonius, you're using a translation of a Holy Book. A religion can't be taken by a couple of translated phrases here and there.
It's like the Atheists do with the Scripture saying "the Book says X THERE!" when 90% of the material shows that this isolated phrase has a different meaning and should be viewed in a different context. I bet that's the same in the Muslim holy book (not sure how it's spelled in English).

For starters, how do you know these passages talk about Christians and not Muslims?

[AnthoniusII]

Prophet's Achtiname IS NOT a book. Its His 1st Degree/Order to all His subjects. Curan was writen much later and Curan consider's a Holly Book.
An Achtiname is a DIRECT Order/degree/will or call it anything you wish.
Its more Sacret than Curan because it carried the Prophet's hand print (as His signature). Its the Only Deree that Prophet actually narated and writen by his following generals and Signed by Him.
If you wish, you can write the names of those that personaly signed as Prophet's witnesses from here.
When so many people that Prophet used to establish Islam sign this document is not a Holly Book. Its the Will of Prophet Him Self.

[Darios]

One thing that is adamant in Islam is that according to them - non-Muslims (in fact, Muslims as well) have no authority to pronounce judgement over who is right or wrong in Islam. It's part of the reason why Daesh is universally hated, even by Al Qaeda.

In any regard, history has shown that the Ottoman Empire in its waning days as well as its modern successor does not give much thought to Mouamet's Ashtiname because there was a shift in focus from being the leaders of Islam to a more nationalistic Turkish identity. This is why the Turkish state has slowly but surely found subtle ways to oppress its minorities (Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, etc) to the point of forcing them to emigrate and slowly erasing their cultural presence from the country. Now, I don't know what Erdogan's true motives are with seizing the churches (they may very well end up being renovated and returned to their flock) but the underlying point here is that there is a well founded sense of fear among Turkey's minorities to the point when something like this does happen, it sends some people into a panic.

I guess that is the thing. Using religion to justify Turkey's requirement to protect Christian churches is not a very valid one as nationalism, not religion is largely what drives the country's thought process today. Daesh would actually be more likely to wave Mouamet's Ashtiname and use it to justify sparing a Christian population/church as they are the ones following Islam word-for-word by the book in its medieval context.

[Abdülmecid I]

Prophet's Achtiname IS NOT a book. Its His 1st Degree/Order to all His subjects. Curan was writen much later and Curan consider's a Holly Book. An Achtiname is a DIRECT Order/degree/will or call it anything you wish.

Achtiname is irrelevant, regardless of its religious or historical value, because Turkey is a secular state, whose laws are derived from her constitution, not the teachings of Islam, so the initiatives undertaken by the Turkish state have a broader aspect and are not necessarily in accordance with Mohammad's views. For example, the state has every right to protect and preserve its cultural heritage, even if that's a violation of a distorted (or not, it doesn't really matter) representation of one of Mohammad's decrees.

[AnthoniusII]

Achtiname is irrelevant, regardless of its religious or historical value, because Turkey is a secular state, whose laws are derived from her constitution, not the teachings of Islam, so the initiatives undertaken by the Turkish state have a broader aspect and are not necessarily in accordance with Mohammad's views. For example, the state has every right to protect and preserve its cultural heritage, even if that's a violation of a distorted (or not, it doesn't really matter) representation of one of Mohammad's decrees.

That's true...That was Attatuk's legacy. But your curent president tries hard to revive the Ottoman Empire. Ottoman Empire without Saria can not be. So...you will act like faithfull Mulsims and obey Prophet's order or you will stop pretenting the Muslim World protectors because your state is the 1st that has no Faith in Prophet's Order.
Its a hard delime I know...But modern Turks must make a choice.

[Abdülmecid I]

You confuse the state with the president, the present with the future, foreign policy with an alleged dream of doing something impossible and all this is irrelevant, because temporarily seizing churches for more efficiently guaranteeing their integrity in way violates Mohammad's decree. Even if it did, no Turkish citizen has the right to prioritize a religious document over his state's law. It's not only Ataturk's legacy, but the law which regulates Turkey's administration and existence, since her creation, so there's really no dilemma, even if Erdogan was Turkey and he planned to magically transform it into Ottoman Empire 2.0.

[PointOfViewGun]

Nothing should EVER be taken from Christians , priests or monks. How much more clear than that Prophet Him Self can be?
Which Mulsim can make the sin to allow him self to think that he is more Faithfull than the Prophet Him self?

Nothing in there says that you can't legally confiscate a church plot for a period of time for the purpose of making repairs after a month long clashes with a terrorist group. Why are you putting words in a 15 hundred years old dead man?

[AnthoniusII]

Nothing in there says that you can't legally confiscate a church plot for a period of time for the purpose of making repairs after a month long clashes with a terrorist group. Why are you putting words in a 15 hundred years old dead man?

It seems that you "translate" His words in a way that comforts your lack of arguments OVER His Order.
Unless the english word "taken" is to allien for you to translate it in Turkish.

[PointOfViewGun]

It seems that you "translate" His words in a way that comforts your lack of arguments OVER His Order.
Unless the english word "taken" is to allien for you to translate it in Turkish.

I'm not translating anything. His words are quite clear:

No one is allowed to plunder the pilgrims, or destroy or spoil any of their churches, or houses of worship, or take any of the things contained within these houses and bring it to the houses of Islam.

No such thing is being done right now.

[Dromikaites]

5 pages of discussion later we're still going nowhere.

Based on Erdogan's existing track record the probability is higher the churches will be restored and returned for service than anything else happening to them. If in doubt, please look up articles about Erdogan's government restoring Armenian churches and reopening them for service. One of the churches seized now in Diyarbakir (St. Giragos) has already been part of the reconstruction project. The before and after pictures should be enough to dispel the doubts:

Church in 2008, before reconstruction:


Church in 2012, after reconstruction and reopening:


In this case the images should speak better than 1000 words methinks.

What has happened now is the whole area was seized and the church happens to be inside the area. Why didn't the government seize just the destroyed buildings? Probably our of expediency and because it simplifies the security of the reconstruction site. However given what the government has already done with that very church seized now, I put my money on it to be returned again, this time in a restored neighborhood.

[alhoon]

Turkey banned Orthodox Liturgy in Sumela this year.
It seems the fears of the Christians in Turkey were not unfounded; Erdogan is becoming more anti-Christian and oppressive towards us.

[PointOfViewGun]

Turkey banned Orthodox Liturgy in Sumela this year. https://s22.postimg.org/p1en1h1pd/World_Spiral.png
It seems the fears of the Christians in Turkey were not unfounded; Erdogan is becoming more anti-Christian and oppressive towards us.

Sigh... No, the liturgy was not banned. The access to the monastery was closed due to increasing frequency of rock sliding. They're surveying the face of the mountain to see how they can eliminate that problem to ensure visitors safety, and also using this time to do some restorations which is said to be totaling at 60 million Turkish Liras (about $20 million). They're working with mountain climbers to identify and eliminate loose rocks above the monastery.

For those who do not know what the monastery looks like:

[Incontinenta Buttox]

Sigh... No, the liturgy was not banned. The access to the monastery was closed due to increasing frequency of rock sliding. They're surveying the face of the mountain to see how they can eliminate that problem to ensure visitors safety, and also using this time to do some restorations which is said to be totaling at 60 million Turkish Liras (about $20 million). They're working with mountain climbers to identify and eliminate loose rocks above the monastery.

I look forward to the restoration of St Sophia

[alhoon]

Let's hope that's right DLS. Unfortunately too many Orthodox religious places are under repairs, enough to make people suspicious of Erdogan's commitment to religious freedom.

[PointOfViewGun]

Let's hope that's right DLS. Unfortunately too many Orthodox religious places are under repairs, enough to make people suspicious of Erdogan's commitment to religious freedom.

How many and which Orthodox places are under repairs at the moment?

[alhoon]

The seized churches in the OP and now one of the most important monasteries of Orthodox Christianity.

[PointOfViewGun]

The seized churches in the OP and now one of the most important monasteries of Orthodox Christianity.

So, you have two examples? That's too many?

[Tureuki]

Erdogan's oppression and intolerance is mainly aimed towards his arch political enemies and ex-muslims, "culturally degenerated" people. The Christian and Jewish population in Turkey is so small that they don't possess any threat to his ideals. Therefore he doesn't bothers them and finds no problem in looking tolerant. There is no oppression againts Christians under this government.

[Outcast]

Nothing new. While on official levels turkey still has 'good' relations with some of its neighbors, the actions of the government made it one of the most hated in the region for the ordinary people.

[Tureuki]

We never had very good relations with most of our neighbours. Mostly because people being stuck to the past and some trivial details.