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Thread: Erdogan vs Television

  1. #1

    Default Erdogan vs Television

    Since nobody started a thread i though it might be a good idea to do so.

    I don't know how much this is a subject of debate in the rest of the world, but in Germany and Turkey this is one of the main debates in the last couple of weeks. Everything started a while ago when a relatively harmless satire-magazine made a song about Erdogan. This song was pretty harmless and it should be mentioned that they make songs about all politicians, while using prominent songs. There was for example "Hier kommt Alex" about our minister of transport. Now they made "Erdowie, Erdowann, Erdogan". As song you can watch here with an English translation:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    . Despite the fact that the song is not insulting at all because it doesn't use swearwords and is only using video footage which already existed of Erdogan, the German ambassador in Turkey was called in and it was demanded to delete the clip. In the past debate about the the german population laughed about Erdogans reaction and was pretty much entirely behind the german magazin, because that's clearly within the freedom of speech. To see how moderate and harmless those guys were another satirist made an even more provocant clip. Within it, he says that the previous song about Erdogan was pretty harmless and is within the freedom of speech. Than he continues and explains something that would be forbidden in Germany is to call Erdogan someone who plays with goats (the more drastic variant of course) and continues with a series of different insults. Now we have in our law a paragraph who is by popular term called the Shah-paragraph because he was the consequence of insults against the back than persian ruler. Despite being never really used now after 50 years we have the problem that Erdogan has the chance to bring the Satirist in to prison for 3 years. Nobody believes that this is going to happen, but Erdogans lawyers at least started to sue that man.

    The following debate should discuss where political satire starts and where it ends and weather Erdogan overreacts in his way to not accept anyone who speaks about him.

    In my opinion i am reminded at the insult processes in the roman empire only that today nobody is going to be executed for it, while insulting the emperor could clearly result in that.

    Here is also an english article about the entire matter:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Proud to be a real Prussian.

  2. #2
    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    The man is a fool, by reacting to it he drew attention to it. His response has completely backfired. The original youtube clip of the event went from hardly any views to over 7 million in a short space of time.

    https://news.vice.com/article/german...y-really-upset

    If the comedian gets prosecuted or sued in any way then it will be a sad day for Europe.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    It's a combination of Small Penis Syndrome (common with politicians of Kerdogan's type) with the Streisand Effect...

    The original video (with English subs, also with a link to a version with Turkish subs):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  4. #4
    Odenat's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    The satire is harmless? It accuse Erdoğan of watching child porno! Is this harmless for you?

    If i wrote the same things that the song says, i'll get banned from the forum.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-erdogan-poem

  5. #5

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    No, there's two things: the satirical song which basically just describes the facts, and the poem by a different guy which is a reaction to Kerdogan's outrage over the former, and is apparently meant as a lecture in the line of "you call that insulting? I'll show you insulting".

  6. #6
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    This is a fun story. Saw it on Reddit already. Lol. Honestly, I can't think of a better way for Erdogan to advertise these parody videos than to single them out and beg Merkel to crack down on them like he would with his own media outlets and journalists.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    I am depressed that Germany has a law which makes it a crime to insult foreign heads of state. I don't think a democracy should have any such law. And in this case, a law which will have the effect of making criticism of the very law in question a crime.

    If Erdogan can prove he has been damaged, he should bring a civil case agaisnt Böhmermann. The German State should have no part in protecting politicians from criticism.
    Last edited by Sphere; April 12, 2016 at 11:37 AM.

  8. #8
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Idiots are idiots, what else is new?

    Clamping down on satire is nothing else than showing your own insecurity.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  9. #9

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    The satire is harmless? It accuse Erdoğan of watching child porno! Is this harmless for you?

    If i wrote the same things that the song says, i'll get banned from the forum.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-erdogan-poem
    Well, the second guy is the one in trouble because he intentionally said stuff not covered under satire to point out the difference between satire and insulting and slander (His piece starts with: "The following is not allowed..." ). Now Erdogan sues him for the insulting despite his piece being about pointing out the difference. It's at least pretty weak form for a politician.

    That said the problem is that even with the intention I do think there is a legal case because it implied criminal accusations not even a public figure has to tolerate because something like accusations of paedophilia are career ruining even without a verdict.

    In contrast the first song Erdogan riled against simply cited facts underlined by video snippets of those facts as well as simple political opinion based on those facts.

    The actual fun bit was pretty much every single German politician being so annoyed about the entire BS because they just want everyone to shut up, Erdogan to hold his end of the bargain concerning the refugee deal and walk away. The German foreign office sounds like being forced to eat lemons. None there is particularly happy deciding about an article 5 issue of Basic law and drag some media figure in front of court or get ed over about the Turkey deal.

    That said Erdogan also filed a civil lawsuit against Böhmermann for slander and other private sources also filed complaints for the Mainz persecution to investigate the case. The lawyer purists can't wait for this to go before the German Supreme Court because they expect if this goes to court it will go the whole mile.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    I am depressed that Germany has a law which makes it a crime to insult foreign heads of state. I don't think a democracy should have any such law. And in this case, a law which will have the effect of making criticism of the very law in question a crime.

    If Erdogan can prove he has been damaged, he should bring a civil case agaisnt Böhmermann. The German State should have no part in protecting politicians from criticism.
    Erdogan did. The law is a bit more difficult because it essentially is that the German government has to decide if a foreign government makes an appeal on them concerning that law. Thing is, it is kind of consistent because the German president is protected by a similar law. Difference being that the president would have to demand persecution in that case and would be unlikely to politically survive this. It's outdated for sure though it is again the difference in importance between article 1 and article 5, both important but the first beats the later.

    To an extent I like to think these laws make our satire and criticism actually smarter because low blows are pointless and risky.
    Last edited by Mangalore; April 12, 2016 at 11:50 AM.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    To an extent I like to think these laws make our satire and criticism actually smarter because low blows are pointless and risky.
    A little ironic given Böhmermann has managed to bring into the spotlight the issues surrounding the Merkel Erdogan relationship, and the issues about this law far better than previous "reasoned and sensible" satire, which barely made a ripple.

    I think that illustrates why people like John Steward and Bohmermann should be deciding what is and isn't effective satire and not the German State.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    The satire is harmless? It accuse Erdoğan of watching child porno! Is this harmless for you?

    If i wrote the same things that the song says, i'll get banned from the forum.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-erdogan-poem
    You would be banned from the forum, but noone would arrest you. The idea that people who criticize the government should be summoned in front of a court and forced to explain themselves or be punished is disgusting.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    A little ironic given Böhmermann has managed to bring into the spotlight the issues surrounding the Merkel [COLOR=#333333]Erdogan relationship, and the issues about this law far better than previous "reasoned and sensible" satire, which barely made a ripple
    ???? What did Böhmermann bring into the spotlight? Everyone halfway interested knew that we made a dirty deal with an to try to fix the European aspect of the refugee problem. It's not like the government denied it either. If a senior politician tells you "We have to endure some nasty pictures" you know they know they made a dirty deal.

    It's also not new that slander laws are stricter in germany and other central European countries than in anglicistic countries.

    So I have no clue what you are talking about.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
    Mangalore Design

  13. #13
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    So if Merkel prosecutes Böhmermann, she will anger German voters. But if she doesn't, she will anger Erdogan.
    Perhaps a solution would be to send him to Turkey in exchange for another equally bad Syrian comedian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    I am depressed that Germany has a law which makes it a crime to insult foreign heads of state. I don't think a democracy should have any such law. And in this case, a law which will have the effect of making criticism of the very law in question a crime.

    If Erdogan can prove he has been damaged, he should bring a civil case agaisnt Böhmermann. The German State should have no part in protecting politicians from criticism.
    Agreed

  14. #14
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    I see free speech is still not very valued in Germany. Insulting a head of state should never land you criminal charges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    So if Merkel prosecutes Böhmermann, she will anger German voters. But if she doesn't, she will anger Erdogan.
    Perhaps a solution would be to send him to Turkey in exchange for another equally bad Syrian comedian.
    ...
    Take it as you will since everything is in flux but some statements from the foreign office were in line of rejecting the demand, probably as there is too much at stake domestically, while accepting a civil lawsuit.

    btw: Merkel is not prosecuting anyone. Police and persecutors are part of the executive which means they always act representative of the government and in this case any start of the investigation has to be signed off by the government because it involves foreign policy. There is already an investigation ongoing independently because persecutors have to open one when they receive indications of a crime having ocurred. It says nothing whether they start a lawsuit or if a judge deems their arguments worthwhile. It mainly adds an additional and more serious charge to the same circumstance though.


    Edit: an interesting issue is whether German politicians see any value in catering to Erdogan over the German public. Agreeing that the sketch was in poor taste to the Turkish foreign secretary is cheap, agreeing to this demand however may seem too costly domestically for no gain. I kind of doubt anyone believes looking weak gets you anywhere with him, well, Seehofer might, but I digress. In the end elections are more important than a disgruntled Turkish president. The main threat is domestically again: Erdogan going back on the deal and causing the refugee crisis to flare up again.
    Last edited by Mangalore; April 12, 2016 at 04:14 PM.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
    Mangalore Design

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    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    The satire is harmless? It accuse Erdoğan of watching child porno! Is this harmless for you?

    If i wrote the same things that the song says, i'll get banned from the forum.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-erdogan-poem
    Erdogan a good boy, he dindu nuffin



  17. #17

    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I see free speech is still not very valued in Germany. Insulting a head of state should never land you criminal charges.
    Errr... insulting ANYBODY is a crime according to § 185 of German Penal Code (Strafgesetzbuch). Not limited to heads of states or something... ANYBODY!

    So Germany must be the living hell for free speech, right?

  18. #18
    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Europe in general has a free speech deficit in comparison to the United States, yes.

  19. #19
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraut View Post
    Errr... insulting ANYBODY is a crime according to § 185 of German Penal Code (Strafgesetzbuch). Not limited to heads of states or something... ANYBODY!

    So Germany must be the living hell for free speech, right?
    Yea since insulting people shouldn't land you a criminal charge either.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  20. #20
    Adar's Avatar Just doing it
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    Default Re: Erdogan vs Television

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    The satire is harmless? It accuse Erdoğan of watching child porno! Is this harmless for you?

    If i wrote the same things that the song says, i'll get banned from the forum.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-erdogan-poem
    The text is rude and contain references to topics such as shagging and zoophilia, but as shown by the links both topics have been debated here before

    Full poem with the limited foul language.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by Translated poem from Reddit
    Source
    Böhmermann: Welcome to Germany's comedy show NR. 1. It's us. We don't have anything to do with satire. What our colleagues of extra3 did... we're not as thorough as them. Respect to them, big thing they made. That's a different league, like heute-show as-well. I really, really like the heute-show. They're sooo brilliant. When I heard rumors in the past, we were looking for their spot or anything Olli Welke hosts... Noooo, not at all Olli! Best wishes to you! [blows kiss to camera] I am suuuch a big fan of yours, I always watch your show for... for... errr... „inspiration“. Also, the Satire by extra3 almost started the third world war. Big applause for that! Super-song. And apparently in Turkey every, even the smallest satire or comedy show is being watched. So presumably, you also watch our show. Dear Turks, hello, when you watch this here. Maybe we need to explain something to you...? What our colleagues from extra3 did, was to make fun of your politics, Mr. Erdogan. That's legal in Germany and Europe through freedom of arts, freedom of media and freedom of speech. Kabelka: „By Article 5!“ Böhmermann: Article 5 of our constitution! That's legal. Criticism of politicians is legal! You can't come here and tell the government to withdraw satire or delete it from the internet. This is completely legal here. And I really enjoyed, how civil society stood up this week. Beatrix von Storch, who wanted me shot, if I remember correctly, two weeks ago, because of the BeDeutsch-video. And now all of a sudden, she's in first row, when it's about to defend freedom of arts and speech. Everyone agrees, satire needs to be allowed. Je suis extra3! Mr. Erdogan, but there are of course examples, that aren't legal. On one side, there's justified criticism, satire and fun, which is legal. And on the other side there's „abusive criticism“, which is illegal. „Abusive criticism“, that's a juridical term. Kabelka: „If you plainly insult people, defame people in personal regards, degrade people just to degrade them.“ Böhmermann: To degrade someone is „abusive criticism“? And that's illegal? Kabelka: „Yes.“ Böhmermann: Did you understand that, Mr. Erdogan? Kabelka: „It can be prosecuted.“ Böhmermann: It can even be prosecuted? And then video can be withdrawn from the internet? Kabelka: „Yes, but only afterwards.“ Böhmermann: It may be a bit complicated for you, Mr. Erdogan. Maybe we'll explain it by a practical example. I've got this 'poem' here, it's named „abusive criticism“. May we have a Turkish styled version of a song by Nena? And may we have a Turkish flag in the background? Fine! What comes next would be illegal? Kabelka: „Would be illegal.“ Böhmermann: This would be considered illegal. The 'poem' is named „abusive criticism“: „Sod-dumb, cowardly and hesitant/ Is Erdogan the President/ His boner smells like Döner/ Even a pig's fart smells finer/ He's the man who punches girls/ while wearing a bloody rubber mask/ Things he loves the most/ is shagging goats/ and oppressing minorities This kind of criticism would be illegal! Kicking Kurds, beating up Christians/ while watching child porn/ And in the evening instead of a nap/ Fellatio with a hundred sheep/ Erdogan is all things considered/ a President with a tiny wang/ I repeat this is an example of what would be illegal! Kabelka: „One would not be allowed to say that“ Böhmermann: Every Turk can be heard whispering:/ This dumb pig has got shrivel-balls/ From Ankara to Istanbul/ Everyone knows this man is gay/ perverted and zoophil/ Recep Fritzl Priklopil/ His head as empty as his balls/ the star guest on every gang-bang party/ until his tiny wang starts to burn while having a piss/ That's Reccep Erdogan“ This is what would NOT be legal by freedom of arts! Hey, don't applaud! What would happen next? Kabelka: „It would be withdrawn from the mediathek, f.i..“ Böhmermann: So, Erdogan would need to take a lawyer!? I'll say Dr. is a great lawyer. Kabelka: „Yes, he's the lawyer of the mayor of Berlin and others.“ Böhmermann: Mr. Erdogan, visit this lawyer, tell him you've watched something you don't like: „abusive criticism“. Then you'd visit a court. Get a restraining order there. Then we'd have a legal case. Does that become clear to you? I really enjoyed, as a citizen of Germany, now after months of disputes and arguments, we finally had a consensus again. When its' about despots, when it comes to politicians, who go against freedom, like only despots do: Erdogan, Victor Orban, Beata -lo, Beata -lo from the Piss-Party, the Prime Minister of great neighboring country Poland, Marine LePen from the [acts like vomiting] Front National, Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands [most likely confused him with Geert Wilders], HC Strache from the FPÖ. They're all authoritarian, nationalistic wannabe despots. Also Frauke Petry, here, of course. All these are people, who more people should go against. Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump. I really appreciate we resist these guys self-confidently. Who cuts the rights of other people, needs to get his own rights cut.

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