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Thread: Fighting with a glass hammer

  1. #1

    Default Fighting with a glass hammer

    I'm nearing the end of my HE campaign, which while fun, has not been nearly as satisfying as previous campaigns with Silvan Elves and Rohan. I find myself struggling to maintain more than 2.5 stacks with my economy, which is barely enough to keep any forward momentum against my final enemies (focused on finishing Mordor, dont know if I will have time to get to Harad and Rhun with only about 95 turns to go).

    My current empire: I have established a crescent-shaped empire in the west which includes everything from: HE starting cities on the coast; Allimir, Eryn Vorn, Argond, Lond Daer, Duneard, Talsir, Lond Angren, and Isengard, Moria, Byrig, Ostin-Edhil and Imraldis on the other end. The OOM and Isengard settlements have provided great profit centers and recruitment sources (they are pretty much the sole source of my top tier troops right now). The settlements further west (even my starting ones) have been slow to grow (out of my 4 starting cities on the western coast only Mithlond is capable of producing top tier troops) and at this point are too far from the war front to be of any real use (though they are providing Linden Spears which have been instrumental in dealing with the numerous trolls I have encountered, a much underrated unit IMO). As Gondor was getting tag-teamed by Mordor and Harad in the mid-game (they had lost Cair Andros, Henneth Annun, W. and E. Osgiliath) I sent 2 expeditionary stacks to retake those lands and colonize to create a buffer between Mordo and Gondor. That operation was a slug fest, and very tedious since my line of reinforcement was getting stretched, but it did work in the long run. Gondor has been able to hold the Harad stack spam at bay (though they will need my help eventually) and I am now getting to the point where I can recruit basic troops from these colonized cities/castles (though I still rely on lengthy marches from my western settlements to reinforce my top tier units). From this new "eastern" kingdom i have struck out to conquer Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol which has further reduced Mordor's recruitment cities. The end is near for Mordor, but alas their armies are still strong and plentiful. They have 1-2 stacks blocking my advance from the Cirith Ungol pass and they still send forth numerous armies from the Black Gates to battle Rohan for control of Malgalad (Rohan is losing horribly but thankfully are diverting a good bit of Mordor's attention away from my own operations).

    The challenge I face is two-fold:
    1) My armies rely on reinforcements from my western cities of Moria, Isengard, Imraldis, and even further (Forlond, Harlond) for my Linden Spears (my only AP unit I currently have access to). After several major battles, I have to halt my offensive operations in order to allow reinforcements to come in (I have my western cities constantly recruiting new units, but the march time means I still have to wait before they get to the front).
    2) My economy is working, but not well enough. My starting cities have been very slow to grow (only Mithlond is a small city at this point). This coupled with my having many mediocre governors (I probably need to make a dedicated effort to train better governors for the next campaign) means that my cash flows are barely high enough to sustain my operation requirements. Don't get me wrong...I have about $70k gold right now, and I haven't dipped below $63k for quite some time. But once i start to mobilize more than 1-2 field armies and my units start leaving their garrison (and free upkeep), I struggle to maintain a positive net income. If I were to put 3 full stacks into the field right now (which is what I sorely need) I would likely be losing about $2k-$3k (recruitment + buildings + wages) gold every turn, which I can sustain for a few turns, but not for the long term.

    So this is what I mean when I say am fighting with a glass hammer as the HE. My units are supreme on the battlefield; their ranged attacks can decimate most enemy armies before they even reach my ranks, and their melee can overcome the rest....but I always take casualties (at least several hundred) due to the fact that I am now fighting catapults (which are way too accurate IMHO) and fully armored trolls. I know how to deal with these threats, but short of a chokepoint battle or fighting from very high ground, casualties are inevitable. And when I take those casualties is when I have to pause my offensive operation to recruit, reinforce, which costs me time and money. I simply don't have enough money and troops readily available to keep up a constant offense...it's honestly to the point where I may defeat Mordor just before the game turns run out.

    When I started this campaign, I had grand visions of conquering a nice little empire out of Moria's and Isengard's former holdings (which I did for the most part) and then sitting back and letting my cities (and economy grow) so that i could build up some fleets and nice powerful stacks to sail to either Harad or Mordor and launch behind-the-lines Inchon style attacks....that plan never came to fruition. As soon as I had defeated Isengard and Moria (which happened by the mid-game) Eriador needed my help with Gungabad. Once that was done, my spies revealed that Gondor was literally about to lose everything to a double pronged Mordor/harad Offensive. I firmly believe in keeping Gondor alive for lore and strategic reasons (they keep Harad distracted for the end game) so I sent all the armies I could muster (2 full stacks) which started to put me in the red to save Gondor (as previously mentioned). That worked, but at that point I was committed to full out slug-fest with Mordor, and my chance to lay low and focus on economics was gone...which is where I presently am.


    My lessons learned for HE going forward:
    1) Work on developing good governors (put them in cities where economic buildings are built, turn taxes to VH for last turn of build, keep taxes low to medium for all other turns, ect.)
    2) Defeat Isengard and Moria by end of early game. Either one can become a stream-rolling power and quickly take out allied factions so eliminate them early on before they have a chance to grow. I definitely let both powers grow too big, and my fights with them kept me busy well into the mid-game.
    3) Keep an eye on side fights (Gungabad and Mordor) and send money and/or troops to reinforce or aid allies before they get into dire straights.
    4) Keep taxes low for key cities early on to allow for quicker growth. All of my starting cities (minus Mithlond) are still only large towns at this point in the end game...they should be small to large cities by now, but I fluctuated the taxes to compensate for income issues and used mediocre governors.
    5) Gondor's survival is the key to a healthy end game. If they go, Harad and Mordor gain major lands and income/recruitment sources and you pretty much have 2 huge superpowers to deal with for the end-game....not saying its impossible to overcome that, but it's not the preferred way for sure.
    6) Always recruit Linden Spears when they are available. Many HE players say they're too expensive and have too limited recruitment to be useful...I disagree. They are the only early-mid game units that have AP ( I still haven't unlocked smiths of Egregion) and will prove their worth when you start having to contend with 2-3 armored trolls per enemy stack.
    7) Plan your recruitment cities ahead of time. If I had used some foresight, I would have conquered W. Osgiliath or Cair Andros 10-20 turns sooner than when I actually did. Instead I waited until Mordor was besieging Minas Tirith. Elves and elven culture take for ever to recruit and propagate....start that process earlier vice later.


    Anyway, that's my story. Maybe some others on here can add their own experiences with HE in the end game?
    Last edited by Patronus; April 06, 2016 at 12:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    Some tips from an old gamer;

    having many mediocre governors
    A good tip is: avoid governors
    Yup. Unless they bring a desired level of population growth to a settlement you want to upgrade, provide a great load of extra income or you need him to avoid rebellion due to unrest, governors are not wort it. Generals cost 500 á turn in wage, and that not including their BG upkeep, making them a pooor investment as a rule, and harmful to have to many of in general (a rookie mistake is for example to accept to many adoptions; unless you want to create an OP general-stack, hehe).

    Also, unless you did so, a key is to move your capital from Imladris to Lindon - either after you built all economical buildings you can during turn 1, or I myself prefere after I built all I can at the end of turn 2. It will cost you 5000g, yes, but since you will reduce the corruption in the Haven settlements extremly much, that is repaid in about 5 turns and then you start to gain ~1000g more per turn than if you had not moved it.

    Early on, try to use what forces you have and don't recruit more than absolutly needed. As you should only push one front (I recommend going south from the Havens along the coast towards Isengard), it should not be to much of a problem, while it allow you to spend money on economical and grow buildings early, helping to get things on the right foot early on.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Some tips from an old gamer;

    A good tip is: avoid governors
    Yup. Unless they bring a desired level of population growth to a settlement you want to upgrade, provide a great load of extra income or you need him to avoid rebellion due to unrest, governors are not wort it. Generals cost 500 á turn in wage, and that not including their BG upkeep, making them a pooor investment as a rule, and harmful to have to many of in general (a rookie mistake is for example to accept to many adoptions; unless you want to create an OP general-stack, hehe).

    Also, unless you did so, a key is to move your capital from Imladris to Lindon - either after you built all economical buildings you can during turn 1, or I myself prefere after I built all I can at the end of turn 2. It will cost you 5000g, yes, but since you will reduce the corruption in the Haven settlements extremly much, that is repaid in about 5 turns and then you start to gain ~1000g more per turn than if you had not moved it.

    Early on, try to use what forces you have and don't recruit more than absolutly needed. As you should only push one front (I recommend going south from the Havens along the coast towards Isengard), it should not be to much of a problem, while it allow you to spend money on economical and grow buildings early, helping to get things on the right foot early on.
    Thanks for the tips!

    Yeah, I figured I may have too many governors/generals. I don't recall adopting that many (maybe 1 at the most) but there were a lot who wanted to marry into my family, and I figured I should accept those in order to keep the family tree diverse. Maybe I should be more restrictive on that in the future.

    I've found that in general most of my governors, even the mediocre ones, are providing some measure of public order and a slight income boost to many of my cities. If I were to leave all of my cities on very low taxes, they would probably be green for public order without any governors, but on medium or high, very high taxes (which you need from time to time) I would have yellow or even blue and red cities, so they do provide some bonus there.

    As for the early game tips: I'll have to try moving my capital to Mithlond in the future. I moved it to Lond Daer or something nearby once I had conquered everything east to Isengard (it seemed like the geographic center at the time). The strategy you advise of recruiting only whats necessary and slowly conquering from the starting coastal cities to Isengard is exactly what I did. I think the issue was that I moved too slowly, since by the time I had finished off Moria and Isengard, it was mid to late game and Mordor and Harad and Gungabad had grown to be very big threats....I was playing hot-potato for several dozen turns, blocking or putting down one threat and then trying to reposition to put down another.

  4. #4
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    In addition to what Ngugi said, if I were you I would focus for a while on building only infrastructure that aids and boosts the economy (i.e. roads, farms, markets, seaports, etc.) and put all other building programs on hold except for perhaps your most important settlements where you need advanced barracks, ranges, and stables in order to have the best troops. Unfortunately, as you said, those troops will have to march a long way to the battlefront, but this game is honestly designed that way. To slow your expansion down as much as possible, to make it more challenging. Once your economy is booming, though, you can build barracks and stables and archery ranges everywhere. Once you've done that, you've basically won the game, because Mordor stack spams aren't worth much against an unstoppable juggernaut and the only real superpower on the map.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    Glass hammer? What do you think this is, Tamriel?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jmonstra View Post
    Glass hammer? What do you think this is, Tamriel?
    Haha....nice game reference!

    On the note of my current campaign. It seems I have been able to bust through my current stalemate. I started pumping out more elite infantry units and just recently was able to recruit and reinforce from my Gondorian cities. This has allowed me to field nearly 3 full stacks. It has put my income each turn into the red, but I've made up for that by sacking Mordor's interior cities and demolishing the buildings in the camps/settlements I don't intend to hold. I'm actually above 100k now, which I've heard is not a good thing, but it gives me plenty of financial cushion to dip into should I need it and allows me to field the type and number of armies that I need to finish off Mordor and refocus on Harad and Rhun.

    Mordor, at this point is a paper tiger. They still have some decent punch in some of their armies, but I've taken the black gate, Baradur and 1-2 other forts/cities from them, so their economy is in ruins and most of their units are cheap low tier infantry (though they still have 1 full stack of high tier infantry and armored trolls fighting Rohan near Malgalad). My armies have performed very well against them, though the trolls always managed to exact some casualties from me. At this point I envision Mordor being destroyed within 15-20 turns, tops.

    That still only leaves less than 100 turns to take on Rhun and Harad, so I still have a hefty task in front of me....man I hate Oliphants.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    How do you set the wage for generals to 0? I hate that having governors is penalized.

  8. #8
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    What do you know, googled for where it's edited but apperently it is already 0 hehe.
    Starting generals have a wage of 250, but any later generals (who are not speicificly spawned) have none, meaning the 500g wage as been held a truth for long isn't, not in the last version of TATW at least.
    Governors simply are not, through whatever other mechanics, and lack of ancs and traits, not very effective in TATW; if he pays off you have to compair his BGs upkeep vs the income he provide and the pop growth he provide.

    Those interested can check the wages out in descr_character.txt, and search for wage_base

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    DCI: Last Alliance
    - WIP Second Age mod | DCI: Tôl Acharn - mighty Dúnedain Counter Invasions |
    Additional Mercenary Minimod - more mercs; for TATW and DCI | Family Tree minimods - lore improvements | Remade Event Pictures - enhance cultures trough images |
    Favorite TATW compilation: Withwnars Submod Collection
    Patron of Mank, Kiliç Alì, FireFreak111, MIKEGOLF & Arachir Galudirithon, Earl of Memory

  9. #9
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Fighting with a glass hammer

    ...or the export_descr_unit file for unit costs and upkeep.

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