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Thread: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

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    Default Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    The history of the Tartar Hordes escaping the Mongols and the Mongol Hordes themselves are in a way interwoven in many aspects. The Mongols absorbed their enemies into their own ranks, as we are told from papal envoys (John of Plano Carpini). If Tartar Hordes refer to some other group of people, let me know.

    Feel free to supplement and critique. As for now I'll post what I know of the faction with Chinese elements in it. Later, things related to other Tartar groups or the Mongol as well.

    Kara-Khitan Khanate
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This faction emigrated from Northern China Liao. They settled in transoxania, which is outside the map, just east of the map (like the mongols). In 1218, the ~100 year old Chinese rule ended, no Chinese khan remained and their faction was absorbed into the Mongol empire (known as Black Khitans by westerners). I assume this is (one of) the faction we see on the campaign map thread labeled as Tartar horde, but let me know if I'm wrong.

    When it comes to Chinese units, then the source material is lacking. It seems as if the ruling class of Kara Khitan mostly retained it's culture (religion and dress) from Liao dynasty in Northern China, while they ruled over a mainly Muslim Turkic population.

    Here are links to pictures from a Liao tomb in northern China:


    Turkic auxilliary infantry and horse archers
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    While the Liao ruling class fought on horse back, the auxiliary (from transoxanian and other subjects) filled the need for infantry. These auxiliary constituted most of the army. Most of the army was light horse archers, as was the case with most factions in the area.


    Light Nomad Archers (both mounted and dismounted)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Representing the "Kara-Khitan serjeants"

    Lightly armoured
    Spears, Axes and composite bow
    16th century dress suggestion for clothing of light (horse) archer. (image is from the Sancai tuhui)


    Liao ordu cavalrymen/Jin tiefutuo cavalrymen
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    General, Heavy Shock Cavalry, Heavy Horse Archers.

    Cataphract
    No shield
    Lance
    Horse archers
    Maces

    Cai Wenji scroll depictions: 14th century painting of armoured northern Chinese horse archers

    Here is a link to the Met, and the same picture as above in 4000x1929 resolution. Enlarge it and scroll into the details.

    Weapons
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    Wujing Zongyao of 1044 AD, arms and armour of Song dynasty. This might give inspiration for Liao ordu weapons, specifically the maces.



    Reproduction:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Chinese in transoxania
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    Tang dignitaries/archers in transoxania, 7-8th century.




    BC research thread on Kara-Khitan

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I've tried looking over the BC research thread for hints on the western most Chinese faction, but most of their links/images are broken, the people who might be able to help are missing and the images that remain are mostly concept art rather than primary sources. However, here is a selection of posts that may be interesting to take note of.


    • First draft of KK roster here.
    • Comprehensive rebuttal by celestialwarrior of why the first draft was ahistorical here.
    • Return argument on why certain choices were made here and here from the creator.
    • Years later the roster was changed and released here.


    In conclusion, the research thread was mostly fruitless reading, except for the posts already mentioned.


    In any case, I hope that helps.


    ~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; March 23, 2016 at 09:25 AM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  2. #2

    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Jin Armored Cavalry (possibly absorbed into the mongol army)


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  3. #3

    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    I can't find much information about the Tatar Hordes. I think it would be more appropriate to change the Tatar Hordes into the Golden Horde and the Mongol Hordes into the Ilkhanate. Both the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde would be very present in history for another hundred years. 1212 A.D. was only a couple of years before Genghis Khan croaked and his empire split into Successor Empires.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    In medieval Poland term used for Mongols was actually Tatars (or Tartars if you prefer) so nobody was talking about Mongol Invasion but a Tatar Invasion. The name stayed that way from initial invasion to times of Golden Horse until last days of Crimean Khanate.
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    My professor for Mongolian history stated that Tartars were actually only a small Mongolian people, and that calling all steppe people Tartars is erroneous.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Here are a few images

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


















    Last edited by Lucem Mundum; March 23, 2016 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    The invasions into Europe where done when the Mongols were still united under Ogedei Khan.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    My professor for Mongolian history stated that Tartars were actually only a small Mongolian people, and that calling all steppe people Tartars is erroneous.
    Yes, that is correct, Tartars were only a small part of huge Mongolian army that invaded Europe, but it is still interesting why for example in Poland, Mongols were only called Tartars. My guess is that army that was sent into Poland was made mostly of Tartar warriors of Mongolian horde, probably there were good studies on the jubject made long time ago, but I never did a research on why it was like this.

    If I remember, Tartars were biggest nemesis of Genghis Khan in the beggining of his rise to power.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; March 23, 2016 at 01:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Yes, that is correct, Tartars were only a small part of huge Mongolian army that invaded Europe, but it is still interesting why for example in Poland, Mongols were only called Tartars. My guess is that army that was sent into Poland was made mostly of Tartar warriors of Mongolian horde, probably there were good studies on the jubject made long time ago, but I never did a research on why it was like this.

    If I remember, Tartars were biggest nemesis of Genghis Khan in the beggining of his rise to power.
    I believe i recall the Tartars or Tatars came from the expression that the mongols or the invaders were like "demons from Tartarus (Hell)". The stories medieval Europeans passed on about tartars were kind of scary stories, they mentioned things like raping women till they died from exhaustion, cutting of breasts of maidens for their khan's and leaders delicasies, and even eating enemies and captured people. So to put it short, people in Europe really were scared out the Tartars (Mongols) .

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Seems legit
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    it's not uncommon to call a faction by it's rulling family.
    ------
    I thought Tartars means Timurids lol
    Tatar is the term used by islamic factions to refere to Mongols "Mughul". In fact both Tatar and "Mughul" terms were used in the same time.
    Last edited by nnnm; March 24, 2016 at 02:56 PM.



  12. #12

    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumanthis View Post
    I believe i recall the Tartars or Tatars came from the expression that the mongols or the invaders were like "demons from Tartarus (Hell)". The stories medieval Europeans passed on about tartars were kind of scary stories, they mentioned things like raping women till they died from exhaustion, cutting of breasts of maidens for their khan's and leaders delicasies, and even eating enemies and captured people. So to put it short, people in Europe really were scared out the Tartars (Mongols) .

    My last reading of Mongol-related history is pretty far, but from what I recall, the Tatars were a Mongol tribe. I believe I remember them supposedly living in or around the forests further up North, but I'm really not sure. They were just annexed like the other Mongol tribes (e.g. Naimans) prior to the invasion of Jin China.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    I believe it has to do with generalization. Some Islamic kingdoms for example generalized all the Christians by calling them Franks (there were also few other terms) they also called the Mongols "Tatars", Christians called the Muslims Moors or Saracens. Enemies and "alien" cultures/civilizations tend to be generalized compared to cultures more similar to one's own, for example, Europeans didn't generalize the "identity" of other Europeans (for the most part), the Turkic tribes were also very specific when it came to classifying other Turkic tribes, etc.
    Last edited by Lucem Mundum; March 24, 2016 at 07:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes




    If you want to make assets according to this picture, I can help you with translating their names.
    From left to right: Iron whip (pointing downward), Garlic head (pointing upward) and Caltrop (pointing upward).

    **Extra**
    Explosives from the same book:

    The one on the left is Caltrop Bomb, while the one on the right is Igniting Bomb, possibly similar to the explosive shots for siege engines in Attila.

    From I learned in history class, these ordinances are mounted on mangonels or 床子弩 (Chinese Ballista, a giant composite crossbow mounted on immovable wooden frame. Legend has it that it was used to snipe down great marshal of Liao in miles away) and hurled into enemy lines or buildings.

    The Caltrop Bomb is definitely a great anti-personnel ordinance, causing shock and pain as well as slowing down the enemy. I would love to see in action in the final game.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    FOOT archer:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read:





    Horse archer :

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read:





    Heavy cavalry:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read:





    Tribal steppe wariiors:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read:





    Naccarra skirmirsher drummer (my favorite):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

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    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    My professor for Mongolian history stated that Tartars were actually only a small Mongolian people
    He is wrong.

    Tatars were merely a bunch of western Turkic tribes all lumped together by foreigners under the same name, they were not ethnically Mongolian in any way.

    Basically, all Turkic tribes from Eastern Europe to central Asia were called Tatars first by Persians and then the term spread to Arabs/Romans/Europeans.

    When the Mongolians invaded Europe, Europeans had no idea what was going on or who the Mongols were and logically thought that the invasion was carried out by the tribes they already knew about in the East, which were the Tatars.

    Most of the army that invaded Europe were Mongolians, not the subjugated Turkic tribes.

    The army that marched to Poland/Hungary were the most elite Mongol tumens under the richest and most powerful generals in the Mongol Empire that were originally sent to crush the Volga Bulgars(since the previous Mongol army was obliterated by them).


    Anywho, here is a little lamellar armor test video;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVV5my415VA
    Last edited by +Marius+; March 24, 2016 at 07:07 AM.

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    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    My professor for Mongolian history stated that Tartars were actually only a small Mongolian people, and that calling all steppe people Tartars is erroneous.
    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    He is wrong.
    Tatars were merely a bunch of western Turkic tribes all lumped together by foreigners under the same name, they were not ethnically Mongolian in any way.
    ...
    Gutsy thing to say about a professor, though I too, would venture to say that I think of it as not proper terminology, to identify Tartars with Mongols.
    That being said the professor would be correct-ish if he had said "Mongoloid" instead.
    By "Mongoloid" one can safely assume reference to all nomadic peoples of the Altaic superfamily, the Turkic tribes included, though the theory is not without it's critics.

    All-in-all I find this an informative post.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    He is wrong.

    Tatars were merely a bunch of western Turkic tribes all lumped together by foreigners under the same name, they were not ethnically Mongolian in any way.
    Then not she was wrong but me. Honestly, I didnt really remembered if Tartars were Mongolians or Turks, so i tried a lucky shot (Core meaning of my post was that lumping all steppe people as Tartars is wrong).
    Nevertheless i never would doubt the knowledge of my professor, atleast when its about Mongols.
    Last edited by LinusLinothorax; March 24, 2016 at 10:27 AM.

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    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Then not she was wrong but me. Didnt really remembered if Tartars were Mongolians or Turks, so i tried a lucky shot.
    There is a significant distinction between Turks and Turkic peoples.
    The Turks are a Turkic people but not all Turkic peoples are Turks.

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    Default Re: Research Thread: Tartar Hordes and Mongol Hordes

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    There is a significant distinction between Turks and Turkic peoples.
    The Turks are a Turkic people but not all Turkic peoples are Turks.
    Thanks for clarification.

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