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Thread: "High King" Alaric

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    Default "High King" Alaric

    The faction leader of the Visigoths is always High King. This seems to suggest there were other Visigothic Kings. What would their role, function and relation to the H-King be?

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    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: "High King" Alaric

    Well there was no "High King".

    The concept of leadership in these Barbarian Confederations was usually held by whomever the Romans dealt with. Alatheus and Fritigern, Alaric, Theodoric, etc. Eventually this solidified into kingdoms, but at this time they were more loose confederations (the first kingdom was the Vandal kingdom established in 442).

    A leader's power could wax and wane depending on how many of his optimates, as Ammianus calls them (i.e. princes or more precisely "picked men") supported him. Anaolsus, in 431, is a fine example of a leader who was operating outside of the authority of the Aquitanian Goths.

    It should also be noted that the unified "visigoths" really did not come about until the 440's or 450's. At Alaric's time the Goths consisted of the Tervingi and Grethungi, along with Heruli, Alans, Sarmatians, and other East Germanics, along with possibly some Alpidzur or Tongur proto-Turkish peoples fleeing in the face of the Hun empire. In 406-410 they would be joined by forces from Radagasius' confederation which was defeated by Stilicho, and then as they assimilated the local Roman population in Aquitaine they became the Visigoths.

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    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: "High King" Alaric

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    It should also be noted that the unified "visigoths" really did not come about until the 440's or 450's. At Alaric's time the Goths consisted of the Tervingi and Grethungi, along with Heruli, Alans, Sarmatians, and other East Germanics, along with possibly some Alpidzur or Tongur proto-Turkish peoples fleeing in the face of the Hun empire. In 406-410 they would be joined by forces from Radagasius' confederation which was defeated by Stilicho, and then as they assimilated the local Roman population in Aquitaine they became the Visigoths.
    According to CA they also had Thracian Oathsworn))))))
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    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: "High King" Alaric

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    Well there was no "High King".

    The concept of leadership in these Barbarian Confederations was usually held by whomever the Romans dealt with. Alatheus and Fritigern, Alaric, Theodoric, etc. Eventually this solidified into kingdoms, but at this time they were more loose confederations (the first kingdom was the Vandal kingdom established in 442).

    A leader's power could wax and wane depending on how many of his optimates, as Ammianus calls them (i.e. princes or more precisely "picked men") supported him. Anaolsus, in 431, is a fine example of a leader who was operating outside of the authority of the Aquitanian Goths.

    It should also be noted that the unified "visigoths" really did not come about until the 440's or 450's. At Alaric's time the Goths consisted of the Tervingi and Grethungi, along with Heruli, Alans, Sarmatians, and other East Germanics, along with possibly some Alpidzur or Tongur proto-Turkish peoples fleeing in the face of the Hun empire. In 406-410 they would be joined by forces from Radagasius' confederation which was defeated by Stilicho, and then as they assimilated the local Roman population in Aquitaine they became the Visigoths.
    Interestingly Stilicho's Hunnic allies (led by Uldin/Ultzin) were instrumental in Radagaisus' defeat.

    That said, the notion of "High King" isn't entirely off the mark since the Gothic kings (probably called Reiks, see the IB3 thread) had various "sub-kings" who were subordinate to him (probably called Kindins). Although the latter might also be translated as "Chieftain" or something similar.
    Last edited by Charerg; March 29, 2016 at 07:48 AM.
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    Tryggvi's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: "High King" Alaric

    Gothic kings (probably called Reiks, see the IB3 thread) had various "sub-kings" who were subordinate to him (probably called Kindins)
    As far as I understand Wolfram, the Gothic kings were reiks in general but they could elect 'high judge', war leader kindins. However, Wolfram himself states that there is no clarity and sufficient information. Wolfram bases his analogy on the figure of Pontius Pilate who is called kindins by Wulfila, and Wolfram treats Pilate as a judge mainly (may be, because of his role in the Bible?). This seems to me very weak reasoning.
    I can talk about that only being based on textual evidence. Again, kindins precisely corresponds with Greek word 'hegemon' - ἡγεμών - which itself had no specific meaning, just 'leader, ruler'.
    As for 'judge', there is Gothic word staua and it never applies to Pilate. Another question is - did Wulfila understand that Pilate wasn't an independent ruler but just a head of the Empire part? I think that he did and just tried to show that Pilate is ruler of a kuni (tribe) of the Roman thiuda (people), in other words, part of the whole. That's why he called Pilate kindins. So, in my opinion. kindins is lesser ruler than reiks. At least, at the time between Wulfila's translation and the kingdoms founding.
    Last edited by Tryggvi; March 30, 2016 at 11:47 AM.

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