Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 47

Thread: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

  1. #1

    Default Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    While who exactly owned the Sutton-Hoo helmet is conjecture, we certainly know it was a very expensive and kingly helmet. Now, I know not much variety is possible if you stick to the five (!) Saxon helmets we've found. And I've been able to identify only three of them in the whole Saxon army, but that's another matter alltogether. Almost the entirety of some of the Saxon units are wearing carbon-copies of the Sutton-Hoo Helmet. That seems unrealistic, considering it was found in a King or Nobleman's ship burial. It's not something everyone would have.

    The other two helmets they used are accurate and what a normal Saxon would wear, namely the bowl helm Hengest (props on noble who actually historically existed in this game rather than Rome II's random people) wears and the Coppergate helmets many of the Saxons wear.

    But yes, I'm curious, am I mistaken in thinking they're pretty rich if they are almost all wearing a Sutton-Hoo helmet?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    I'd also love the input of someone who's studied the period on their use of Gedrith and Gesith. I thought they were synonyms, yet there's a distinction between the Saxon units "Gesithas" and "Bodyguard with Gedrithas".

  3. #3

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Richard View Post
    Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!
    Ah, but does Bill Gates also wear a King's helmet??

  4. #4
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    623

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    I haven't studied the Anglo-Saxons, specifically, but at least in Gothic the words Gadrauhts (Soldier) and Gasinthja (Companion), mean two different things. I'd say at least Gesitha is probably close to the Gothic equivalent, though I'm not certain about Gedrith.

    Re: Helms
    I thought the Sutton Hoo and other finds are from a century later than Attila's era? And yes, the Saxons (and the other Germanic tribes) tend to be much richer in-game than they were in reality, with widespread use of chainmail, as well as entire units wearing the Sutton Hoo helmet. That said, I guess you could claim that if the Saxons were as succesful in real life as they probably will be with the player in charge, they would have become rich enough to afford "kingly gear" for entire units.
    Last edited by Charerg; March 17, 2016 at 05:08 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    They were buried a century later, but were almost certainly centuries old. Almost everyone wore their grandfather's or even older armour than what they owned (or what they looted off dead men, who were wearing their ancestor's armour).

  6. #6

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Maybe they could afford it, but with each helmet taking maybe two months to make (look at the detail on the tin plates!) I doubt anyone except a general or king should have one. Unless Henry Ford time-travelled back and allowed them to mass-produce.

    And far too many of them have swords in-game. Swords took a week to two weeks to make and cost a small fortune.

  7. #7
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    623

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Personally, I don't find swords that strange. Although the longsword is probably overrepresented, I think the seax was very common. All in all, swords are relatively common finds compared to chainmail, which was the most expensive piece of equipment during the era. In fact, a sword is still easier to make than most helmets, I'd say. Just look at the prices of equipment from the Lex Ripuaria:

    - Helmet: 6 solidi
    - Mail byrnie: 12 solidi
    - Sword: 3 solidi (7 with scabbard)
    - Leggings: 6 solidi
    - Lance and shield: 2 solidi
    - Warhorse: 12 solidi
    - A good ox: 2 solidi
    - A good cow: 1-3 solidi
    - A good mare: 3 solidi

    Admittedly this doesn't specify which type of sword is in question. And the Lex Ripuaria is from Charlemagne's time.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    The seax is very small and more of a dagger and even utility knife.

    Half a millenia is too big a discrepancy for that to even be relevant.

  9. #9
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    623

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Well, depends on the seax. The military seax was more of a shortsword. Actually one theory I read was that originally Seax referred specifically to the shortsword, before the term grew to encompass the knives as well. At any rate, one needs to keep in mind that swords are far more common than any form of armour (even helmets) in grave findings, so while expensive, they were by no means the "most expensive piece of kit". In fact, you can find swords in "warrior graves" even in very poor areas like Scandinavia and Finland, while helms and armour are practically nonexistant. This may have something to do with burial practices as well, admittedly, it seems warriors were rarely buried with armour.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader

  10. #10
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Vinland
    Posts
    2,895

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Richard View Post
    I'd also love the input of someone who's studied the period on their use of Gedrith and Gesith. I thought they were synonyms, yet there's a distinction between the Saxon units "Gesithas" and "Bodyguard with Gedrithas".
    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    I haven't studied the Anglo-Saxons, specifically, but at least in Gothic the words Gadrauhts (Soldier) and Gasinthja (Companion), mean two different things. I'd say at least Gesitha is probably close to the Gothic equivalent, though I'm not certain about Gedrith.
    Chareg is relatively correct. The term gesith specifically means "follower/retainer of a lord", while the term gedriht means any troop or body of men (basically a unit). So the Chieftain with Gedriht unit should actually be Chieftain's Gesithas, if it were to be historically accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Richard View Post
    The seax is very small and more of a dagger and even utility knife.

    Half a millenia is too big a discrepancy for that to even be relevant.
    This is quite wrong. The word seax is extremely broad. While it does mean knife, it can range anywhere from 12 inches to 36 I believe is the longest they've found.

    This is a utility seax, which was used in every day life and was generally used by farmers. This was definitely not intended as a weapon of war.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Here is a Long seax, or the langseax. It could range from 24-36 inches and was specifically designed for war. Its single edge and heavy back weight made it a very good hacking tool. Some could even have hilts that resembled spathas.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiğinn Veğr: Total War


  11. #11

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    I see, I hadn't actually heard of long seaxes. I had the impression they were all relative small and multipurpose.

  12. #12
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Coppergate, Sutton Hoo, etc all date to roughly 650-750 AD, two to three centuries after Attila. The only Saxon (and it could also be British) helmet from Attila's era I know of is the Shorwell Helmet, which is a Kruezbandhelme.

    Seaxes at this time were primarily a weapon of the Eastern Germanics. The Pouan example is a fine one, being probably Burgundian or Gothic (with obvious Hunnic influence) and dating to roughly 460-470 AD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    Personally, I don't find swords that strange. Although the longsword is probably overrepresented, I think the seax was very common. All in all, swords are relatively common finds compared to chainmail, which was the most expensive piece of equipment during the era. In fact, a sword is still easier to make than most helmets, I'd say. Just look at the prices of equipment from the Lex Ripuaria:

    - Helmet: 6 solidi
    - Mail byrnie: 12 solidi
    - Sword: 3 solidi (7 with scabbard)
    - Leggings: 6 solidi
    - Lance and shield: 2 solidi
    - Warhorse: 12 solidi
    - A good ox: 2 solidi
    - A good cow: 1-3 solidi
    - A good mare: 3 solidi

    Admittedly this doesn't specify which type of sword is in question. And the Lex Ripuaria is from Charlemagne's time.
    Actually it is quite useful and it refers to a Spatha (as the original Latin shows). I can't remember exactly when but I think it dates to the late 6th or the late 7th century AD, not Charlemagne's time.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; March 20, 2016 at 09:35 PM.

  13. #13
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    623

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    You're right about the Lex Ripuaria, it dates to about 630 AD, according to wikipedia (my mistake on that one). There's an even older law code (Lex Salica) dating to 500 AD, but I don't know if this contains prices for various items of equipment. Btw, do you have any pics of the Pouan Seax? It would be interesting to see what the "early model" looks like.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader

  14. #14
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    These prices don't date back to the Lex Salica, no.

    Also I believe I posted the Pouan Seax pics in the wrong thread...





    Contrary to popular belief, the Seax was not invented by the Saxons. It was invented in Eastern Europe/Ukraine by Eastern Germanics and carried into Western Europe by the Migration Era and the Huns (who used it quite extensively). It may have originated in central Asia, I'm not sure.

    This example is Germanic but the Cloisonne and Gold Hilt styles are both Hunnic (other elements are Roman and overall it classifies as a very fancy Germanic Type-1 Spatha).

  15. #15

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Strange they got called Saxons if they didn't invent it.

    Both those examples look luxurious though, with the garnet inlay and gold (foil?) hilt. Not the common man's weapon.

  16. #16
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    623

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Tacitus mentions in the Germania (98 AD) that the Gothones, Rugii and the Lemovii were renowned for using shortswords and round shields (see quote). If the seax first appeared with the Eastern Germanics, it would fit with the idea that at least an early version of the weapon was used by the Gothic tribes.

    Trans Lygios Gothones regnantur, paulo jam adductius, quam ceterae Germanorum gentes, nondum tamen supra libertatem. Protinus deinde ab Oceano Rugii et Lemovii omniumque harum gentium insigne, rotunda scuta, breves gladii, et erga reges obsequium.

    Beyond the Lygii are the Gothones, who are ruled by kings, a little more strictly than the other German tribes, but not as yet inconsistently with freedom. Immediately adjoining them, further from the coast, are the Rugii and Lemovii, the badge of all these tribes being the round shield, the short sword, and servile submission to their kings.
    That said, the name Saxones is first used by Ptolemy in his Geographia (150 AD), which would also indicate that at least the term seax was used at a very early date. Of course it could have simply referred to knives or swords in general, and only later become associated with a particular type.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader

  17. #17

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    What I do find bizarre is the incoherence in the Old English. The Saxons would pronounce seax as say-ucks, so why did they become Saxons and not Seaxons?

  18. #18
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Vinland
    Posts
    2,895

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Richard View Post
    What I do find bizarre is the incoherence in the Old English. The Saxons would pronounce seax as say-ucks, so why did they become Saxons and not Seaxons?
    Actually the Old Saxon word is sax, meaning "knife" (stemming from Proto-Germanic sahsa). The word seax is actually Old English, so therefore was a much later word.

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiğinn Veğr: Total War


  19. #19
    Charerg's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    623

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    I thought Old Saxon and Old English were more or less contemporary languages?

    Still, interesting to know the origin of the word.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader

  20. #20
    Tryggvi's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Voronezh, Russia
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: Are the Saxons richer than Bill Gates? They're all wearing King's helmets!

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Richard View Post
    What I do find bizarre is the incoherence in the Old English. The Saxons would pronounce seax as say-ucks, so why did they become Saxons and not Seaxons?
    Because of the language evolution. In Middle English, ea => a.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •