All MOD's team's members Look at this Mod.Medieval 2 population pool system added to Rome 2 and soon for Attila.

[FrozenmenSS]

From what i understands the Medieval 2 recruitment pool system is coming soon to Attila and for Rome 2 is already out..Cheers guy !!!

I hope the mod's team use this also



http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=632833708

[Slytacular]

Haha, good timing. I saw that same mod last night on the Ancient Empires sub-forum and it's been a WIP for a little while. I'll bother Warman about it.

[Caucasian Iberia]

Some sources about European population in first part of 13th century:

Germany: 7.6 million
France: 13 million
England (Including Wales) : 2.6 million
Scotland: 0.5 million
Ireland: 0.6 million
Italy: 9 million
Northern Slavs (Kiev, Novgorod, Poland): 11 million
Georgia: 7.8 million
Armenia (Armenian highlands): 2.2 million
Cilician Armenia: 1.3 million
Spain + Portugal: 6.7 million
Austria: 3 million
Hungry: 4 million
Balkans: 8 million (Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia)
Denmark: 0.6 million
Norway: 0.2 million
Byzantine states: 18 million
K of Jerusalem: 1.6 million

others:
Ayyubid: 21 million
Anatolia: 8 million
Syria: 2.3 million
Arabs: 5 million
Moorish k: 10 million
Mongols: 8 million
Khwarezm: 4 million

[warman222]

Hey guys! I've known about this mod for awhile now(I am friends with Magnar and Litharion after all). I can't quite say when something like this could be properly implemented but I do intend to incorporate the population mod into MK. The main thing is I'm largely waiting for an official Attila version, though I'll see what I can do on my end too. If you guys want to help, feel free to suggest and debate about class types for such an endeavor and how to divide the units between them. Also C. Iberia what you posted doesn't really help anything, sorry.

[FrozenmenSS]

Here is the review from Darren for the mod.

[Imperator Karl franz IV SIGMA]

thats a nice mod

[Moon_Man]

I say the classes should be divided into

Nobles
-General units and crème de la crème units

Knights
-retinues and armored mid/high tier units

Peasants
-mid/low tier units
-mercs
-peasants and militia

And foreigners

use the method in the Rome II mod, foreign mercs and auxiliaries take from the foreign population of a province, when you conquer a Provence the population of foreigners will be extremely high. Thankfully it should be easier to calculate the number of immigrants thanks to the immigration tab on the Attila campaign map.

[Dumanthis]

I say the classes should be divided into

Nobles
-General units and crème de la crème units

Knights
-retinues and armored mid/high tier units

Peasants
-mid/low tier units
-mercs
-peasants and militia

And foreigners

use the method in the Rome II mod, foreign mercs and auxiliaries take from the foreign population of a province, when you conquer a Provence the population of foreigners will be extremely high. Thankfully it should be easier to calculate the number of immigrants thanks to the immigration tab on the Attila campaign map.

The foreigners part is a bit tricky since Medieval Christendom was not exactly split into nations like we think them today, and the nobles of one nations could easily serve in the other realm as well in similar posts as their original ones. Peasants were also drafted and used more like depending on their master and lord, not by their realm or state if you have. Merchant class or bourgerousie are definetely a medieval class of people, but their significance to the army recruiting pool is something what is unknown to me. But definetely there has to be separation between religions at least, muslims, jews, christians and pagans can't be represented in the same factors.

[Kjertesvein]

If you guys want to help, feel free to suggest and debate about class types for such an endeavor and how to divide the units between them.

Some of the categories, for historical reasons, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

• How everyone become 'foreigners' is an odd one. When looking over the Normandy Garrison muster rolls (recruited from Normandy 1415 - 1453, by England), it's still classified into Archers and Men-at-Arms. The same type of ranks from the English Muster Rolls.
• For the most part, nobles of the land usually swore fealty to new rulers. The idea of making everyone foreigners doesn't seem very medieval.
• The idea of a burgher (middle class) in christian Ibera, Gaelic speaking area, Scandinavia and eastern Europe is strange at best.

Here's what I think. Looking over the English muster rolls for the second and third phase of the 100 years war, it's for the most part categorized into 1/3 Men-at-arms. 2/3 Archers. There are sub-classes such as knights, gentry, armored archers, Mounted archers, etc. for some of the high status men of both ranks, but Man-at-Arms and Archers are the main groups of how ranks were divided in the muster rolls. Basically for all factions, the heavy and the lightly armored (relative to each factions roster).

1. Man-at-arms. - The first group consist of the Barons, the knights, the squires and the gentry, those who could afford substantial gear.
2. Commoner. - Then the lightly armoured who represent the yeomen (freemen), the merchant and the serfs who were relegated to munition armour.
3. Mercenary. - This group made up professional troops and their contribution was known in all the corners of the map.
4. Chargers. - Some say Courser, the Destrier, other times known simply as the Spanish Horse and Frisian Horse. For example any mounted knight designed for the charge require 1 Man-at-Arms and 1 Charger.

---

I do see the upside about having middle-/foreigner class for gameplay reasons like the PoR2++. It adds a transition period of passifying the rebellious population. I'm not sure to be honest.

Merchant class or bourgerousie are definetely a medieval class of people, but their significance to the army recruiting pool is something what is unknown to me.

I'm no expert on this field, so if other people want to correct me, go ahead. I'll mention that according to Norman J.G. Pounds, the average percentage population inside medieval towns compared to the hinterland ranged from about 5% in Northern-/Eastern Europe and 10-15% in central Europe, roughly speaking. Exceptions to towns like Flandern and northern Italy with around 25% of it's faction population as town dwellers. According to Pounds, "The area from the Baltic Sea to Greece were almost devoid of towns"(p.80) That book might be useful for later on when implementing the mod.

~Wille

[jan_boruta]

I think a distinction between Peasantry and Townsfolk needs to be there - towns sprung up all across Europe and the Near East to a bigger or lesser extent, and that can easily be represented by large or low percentages of the population. Apart from being useful in more detailed distinction, limitation and allowance of recruitment of certain units (three step Unit Tier system comes to mind), it allows the player to nicely keep track of the urbanisation of his growing empire. This, and I'd stick to names that aren't terribly anglo-centric, and Man-at-arms is one such term. I'd just call it Knights or Nobility or whatever, it's also simpler to understand.

Interesting observation on the Chargers as a distinct population group. I suppose such an equine group could be featured in all cultures with names changed appropriately (heavy horse for nomadic factions is a bit of a contradiction).

I was also thinking about a possible group called Clergy, although I doubt it would serve a purpose other than flair and fluff. Still, a high percentage of Clergy could impact income and public order, for example.

[Kjertesvein]

I chose England for simplicity. It was intentionally anglicized, because the mod allow for local names depending on factions. "Heavy", "light" and "War Horse" would be better for the sake of discussion.

1. Heavy.
2. Light.
3. Mercenary.
4. War Horse.

I was also thinking about a possible group called Clergy, although I doubt it would serve a purpose other than flair and fluff. Still, a high percentage of Clergy could impact income and public order, for example.

That's interesting that you look at the population in a non-military perspective. Perhaps a high clerical percentage would put certain effects on your populations to simulate papal interference in your cities, who knows.

~Wille

[SF-Inc]

Would also make sense if clergy population increased research speed. I know Total War games are just supposed to be about mindless warfare and all that but adding some mechanics to make it feel more like a 4x game is always nice

[Causeless]

Haha, good timing. I saw that same mod last night on the Ancient Empires sub-forum and it's been a WIP for a little while. I'll bother Warman about it.

The Attila mod on the AE subforum, made by me, is separate from the Rome 2 mod. However, I'm on the Rome 2 P++ team also (as a demi-member - I gave them code from my version in development).

I've not shown many updates recently, but I'm mostly working on research into features like UI editing which will most likely not be in any ported version of P++.

[damien007]

Keep it simple:

Nobility (Upper Class)
Burghers (Middle Class)
Peasants (Lower Class)

Doesn't need to be more complex than that