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Thread: US: A rogue state?

  1. #1
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default US: A rogue state?

    http://news.yahoo.com/two-serbs-abdu...095024309.html

    BELGRADE/TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Two Serbian embassy staff members abducted in Libya in November were among nearly 50 people killed on Friday in U.S. air strikes on a suspected Islamic State training camp, Serbia's prime minister said.

    U.S. officials said the site targeted in the strikes in Sabratha, western Libya, was a camp used by up to 60 militants, including Tunisian Noureddine Chouchane, blamed for two attacks on tourists in Tunisia last year in which dozens were killed.
    Sladjana Stankovic, a Serbian communications officer, and Jovica Stepic, a driver, were taken hostage on Nov. 8 after their diplomatic convoy, including the ambassador, came under fire near Sabratha, a coastal city.
    "It is officially confirmed that the two embassy staff were killed in air raids," Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic told a news briefing in Belgrade.
    He described the deaths as "terrible collateral damage" and said Serbia had been close to securing their release.
    The Pentagon said it was aware of reports that the Serbs had been killed, but had "no information indicating that their deaths were a result of the strike" carried out by U.S. forces.
    The mayor of Sabratha, Hussein al-Thwadi, said the death toll from Friday's strikes had risen to 49.
    It was the second U.S. air raid in three months against Islamic State in Libya, where the militants have exploited chaos following Muammar Gaddafi's 2011 downfall to build up a presence on the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea.
    'FINANCIAL INTEREST'
    On Saturday, Libya's attorney general said one of six wounded survivors told prosecutors those in the building that was hit were "members of Islamic State who came to Libya recently for training and then to carry out terrorist acts in Tunisia".
    But Sabratha's mayor said the building was "just a house", adding: "The house was used for meetings and other acts but not training."
    Serbian Foreign Minister Ivica Dacic said Serbian authorities had been negotiating the release of the two staff and "the kidnappers had a financial interest". But he said the demands had been "impossible" to meet by either the families or the government.
    He said Serbia would send a protest note to Washington for not informing Serbian authorities of the raid.
    Pentagon Press Secretary Peter Cook said the circumstances in which the Serbs had died were "unclear".
    "Our forces watched this training camp for weeks leading up to the operation, and at the time of the strike there were no indications of any civilians present," he said in a statement.
    "We will share whatever information we can with the Serbian government."
    U.S. officials have said they gave advance warning of the strikes to Libyan authorities, without specifying who they contacted.
    Since 2014 Libya has had two competing governments, one based in Tripoli and the other, which has received international recognition, in the east.
    Both sides are supported by loose alliances of former rebels and armed brigades. A unity government has been nominated under a United Nations-backed plan but has yet to win approval or move to Libya.
    Western powers and the United Nations have been trying to reach out to armed factions to provide security for the unity government and tackle the threat from Islamic State militants.
    The ultra-hardline group took control of Gaddafi's home town of Sirte last year and has carried out attacks in several other towns and cities.
    Diplomats and foreign nationals have been targeted in the past for kidnappings, mostly for ransom or to demand the release of fighters being held by overseas governments. Islamist militants have also targeted foreigners.
    Serbia has ties with both of Libya's governments.
    So another air strike by US in Libya killed "50 terrorists". Too bad that it was proved that among the "terrorists" were also some western hostages...To understand the illegality of the airstike we must realize that even the pro-western government condemned the attack...But that doesnt bother US that has evolved a terrorist mentality of "striking wherever we can" bypassing United Nations and even their own pro-western governments. I find this mentality dangerous for world peace.

  2. #2

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/two-serbs-abdu...095024309.html



    So another air strike by US in Libya killed "50 terrorists". Too bad that it was proved that among the "terrorists" were also some western hostages...To understand the illegality of the airstike we must realize that even the pro-western government condemned the attack...But that doesnt bother US that has evolved a terrorist mentality of "striking wherever we can" bypassing United Nations and even their own pro-western governments. I find this mentality dangerous for world peace.
    Your quote has no western government condemning the attack...

    The Serbian government wants to protest about not being informed about the attack and call it tragic because the conditions by the terrorists were inacceptable while the Pentagon says they did not do so because they didn't know the hostages were there.

    I mean, yeah, boo on killing civilians but what is your narrative here?
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  3. #3

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    What is rogue about this?

    The Pentagon said it was aware of reports that the Serbs had been killed, but had "no information indicating that their deaths were a result of the strike" carried out by U.S. forces.

    Pentagon Press Secretary Peter Cook said the circumstances in which the Serbs had died were "unclear".

    "Our forces watched this training camp for weeks leading up to the operation, and at the time of the strike there were no indications of any civilians present," he said in a statement.

    "We will share whatever information we can with the Serbian government."

    U.S. officials have said they gave advance warning of the strikes to Libyan authorities, without specifying who they contacted.

  4. #4
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp...jihadists.html

    I am not talking about the Serbs. I am talking about the people that the west tries to put in power. Even their allies condemned the attack. But it seems that Americans have found it cheap and easy to throw bombs here and there.

  5. #5

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp...jihadists.html

    I am not talking about the Serbs. I am talking about the people that the west tries to put in power. Even their allies condemned the attack. But it seems that Americans have found it cheap and easy to throw bombs here and there.
    Yea, America falls into fog of war -> America is a rogue state.

    I love your logic there. It's brilliant.

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  6. #6
    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
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    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    >it's a Papay attempts to demonize the west for going after terrorists thread
    So classic.

    So how does all of this make the US a rogue state?



  7. #7
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Char Aznable View Post
    >it's a Papay attempts to demonize the west for going after terrorists thread
    So classic.

    So how does all of this make the US a rogue state?

    When you bomb wrecklessly without caring about the consequences then you are a danger for the world peace

  8. #8

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    They say they monitored the place for weeks before bombing. Do you have evidence that it was reckless?

  9. #9

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Hardly a rogue State. It has flaws and critics may be pointed out, but rogue state is exageration. At best could be: "if things go wrong, could USA become a rogue state in 5-15 years?" prolly some folks at Pentagon who do some thinking to prevent this
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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  10. #10
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    They say they monitored the place for weeks before bombing. Do you have evidence that it was reckless?
    Surely it was monitored. This is why they killed western hostages and now they claim they didnt know they were there

  11. #11

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Surely it was monitored. This is why they killed western hostages and now they claim they didnt know they were there
    You can never be 100% sure. Unless you have evidence that civilians were intentionally killed, I have no reason to doubt them. And in any case, it was a military site, and civilian casualties could be cnosidered acceptable under certain circumstances. What in the world does anybody gain by mindlessly killing Serbian civilians?

  12. #12
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Perhaps the starting post does not present enough info to allow us to even suspect that the US have gone "rogue".

    Now, let's look at this:
    Col. Lawrence Wilkerson Warns Obama's Drone War Violates International Law, Creating More Enemies

    and this:
    War Crimes George W. Bush Could Be Charged With

    and a little of this:
    Bush Administration Convicted of War Crimes - Dr. Francis Boyle #N3

    and this:
    Gitmo violates International Law

    So, is the US a rogue nation?
    I don't think so.
    They are too "indispensable" to be rogue.
    Last edited by paleologos; February 20, 2016 at 08:55 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    These are opinions by people with no authority in the US legal system.

  14. #14

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    When you bomb wrecklessly without caring about the consequences then you are a danger for the world peace
    You mean like russians are doing right now in Syria? Cluster munitions to urban areas, while their PM tells with poker face that they haven't hurt any civilians whatsoever so far.



    Or Assad that they support firing Grads at city. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a1_1400236099

    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/thi...nse-1759289467

    So if you're going to start throwing around Rogue state accusations, there are even better contenders for that title around. Atleast the training camp in question wasn't in middle of a city full of civilians, bombed with inaccurate area denial style weapons (cluster bombs, rocket launchers).

  15. #15

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    @paleologos

    Not sure how law works in such cases, but what you point would punish the former president, rather than the State itself, coming since Washington.
    Longest modern republic
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  16. #16

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    The USA is not merely "a" rogue state, it is the quintessential rogue state.

    North Korea may employ absurd rhetoric and occasional cross-border terrorist attacks involving commandos, against South Korea, but only the USA has the ability and willingness to regularly project military power across the world, often against a half-dozen or more countries at the same time.

    The USA is a rogue state with a global presence.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Does rogue state actually have a proper definition?
    Because from my understanding of the word, its much like 'terrorist' or 'fascist' in the sense that it used to, but was then hijacked by politicians and pundits under the new description of "that thing I don't like and shall now try to demonize" (though 'fascist' seems to have fallen out of favor in recent years and got some of its original meaning back).

    As for the incident in question, when you bomb terrorists who use civilians as a human shield, those civilians tend to die, even if you didn't know they were there. Just an unfortunate truth of modern war, no way around it. The alternative is letting the terrorists run wild and do a lot more damage in the long run. Hardly makes the Americans a rogue nation, whatever that means (especially since they're hardly the only ones freely bombing Daesh).
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  18. #18

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    lmao... ok, look, when Jordanian planes bombed a daesh position and accidentally killed US citizen Kayla Mueller, nobody made a thread that said "Jordan: A rogue state"

    really, this thread doesn't have any merit at all

    what's interesting though is the reaction from Russian-friendly states like Serbia

  19. #19

    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    lmao... ok, look, when Jordanian planes bombed a daesh position and accidentally killed US citizen Kayla Mueller, nobody made a thread that said "Jordan: A rogue state"

    really, this thread doesn't have any merit at all

    what's interesting though is the reaction from Russian-friendly states like Serbia

    They are also vary US friendly. You forgot hove they kissed McCain on last visit and NATO agreement ?

  20. #20
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: US: A rogue state?

    Rogue state definition

    a nation or state regarded as breaking international law and posing a threat to the security of other nations.

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