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Thread: Mercenaries from Venetia

  1. #1

    Default Mercenaries from Venetia

    Hello forum people. I apologize if this is not the right way, but I had problems with my Org account and I'm not able to post it to my previous contact (Arjos). I also apologize for my very bad english

    I have been asked for this from months..hope it can still be useful

    This is the proposal for 2 mercenaries units of Veneti that could be availables for Venetia, Raition and northern Illyria (all provinces influenced by venetic culture).

    Ekupeta
    Ekupeta are the most particular unit in Veneti’s armies. They are noble horse-breeders used to mounted fights. Their ability on the battlefield played an important role in repelling gallic incursions. They should be represented by medium cavalry with great mobility, able to fire javelins and with good charge statistics. According to archeological and iconographical sources, this was probably their main equipment:

    · Latènian javelin/spear with leave-shaped point
    · Latènian Scutum (see below) or, in alternative, circolar shield with umbo and border (as an archaic and noble trait). Motifs on shields could have a sort of ‘radiant scheme’ and be divided in four 'sections' (see below).
    · Medium La Tène ‘long’ sword (see picture)
    · La Tène Helmet (with overhead button, feathers or hackle), expecially of the Vallesella type (a bit taller than others), or Negau helmet with crest (as an archaic and noble equipment)
    · Anatomic bronze thorax or lorica hamata of celtic provenience (see bronzes)
    · Some should have high jambs
    · Short tunic (with floreal or geometric decorations)
    · Endromides (see bronzes)
    · Horse with latènian harness and decoration on tail and forehead hairs

    Milites Veneti
    Spearmen are the typical foot unit in venetic armies. They should be represented by a hybrid infantry unite both with italic and celtic elements. From IV to I centuries B.C. they are usually equipped with:
    · Latènian spear with leave-shaped point
    · Battle knife (Bacchiglione type – approximately 35 cm long, see below), axe or latènian short sword.
    · Latènian helmets similar to cavalry’s ones; Montefortino helmet
    · Scutum (see below)
    · Some could have one or two jambs
    · Latènian or etruscan shoes and short tunic


    Some pictures from archeological evidences..
    equipments:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Vallesella helmet: http://imgur.com/sC8iS8C
    Latènian swords from venetic tombs:http://imgur.com/ot3yHQc
    examples of scutum form venetic sanctuary: http://imgur.com/CdvQDfY
    Spears and umbo from patavinian tomb: http://imgur.com/PzjtQhR
    Bronzes with celtic helmets: http://imgur.com/6gH54S6
    Bronzes with examples of armure: http://imgur.com/4JBlKkP
    http://imgur.com/yVYQ1Qd
    Bacchiglione knife: http://imgur.com/LEohkN9


    Cavalry:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Patavinian ekupetaris ("funeral monument of the ekupeta") stele (typical patavinian funeral monument for nobles - note that the charriot has to be considered as an iconographical element, there's no evidence of their use in battle as for gallic warriors): http://imgur.com/HX3KWs4
    http://imgur.com/CaEAELj
    http://imgur.com/TXqhuWR
    http://imgur.com/CpI4uy9


    Infantry
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spearmen from cultual bronze offers (you can recognize various models of latènian and montefortino helmet and scuta as in cavalry pictures)
    http://imgur.com/WrpKedC


    Tips for decorations:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    floreal and vegetal elements as in the venetic art of Situlae: http://imgur.com/v9iQbwO
    (note that this specifically situla is from VI sec. B.C...there are no hoplites in hellenistic Venetia)
    something for shield decorations from Altinus: http://imgur.com/XXmQmho
    a particular for horses' 'hair decorations': http://imgur.com/W0WDpJH
    This kind of symbols probably represented a sort of heraldry of noble ekupeta families...it could be used for shield decorations or signa (another one, similar to a torq, can be seen under one of the stele): http://imgur.com/kgst8l4


    These are some of my 'artistic interpretations' xD maybe can give you an idea:


    Also, as a proposition for unit rootser in Patavium, imho, a part from ekupeta and milites veneti there should be principally gallic infantrymen and kinghts, as well as some kind of mediterranean funditors (attested by sources)

    thank you for reading ^^ I hope it can be useful for modders

    Durin

  2. #2

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Very cool.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    It looks very interesting as well

  4. #4

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Arjos grabbed all this info and posted on the internal forum. He should still be reachable on here as well.

    What everyone is seeing here is part of the unit concepting process that leads to units being created. Histro-Venetic units are part of those planned.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  5. #5

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Can you bring forward sources for evocati horned helmets?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Yeah, Id like to see those as well. If more people saw them, they could be featured more in games and reproductions.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Quote Originally Posted by wermez View Post
    Can you bring forward sources for evocati horned helmets?
    I think it was Paulus that posted pictures of reliefs that depicted them, but the post is gone since the forum went bonkers.

  8. #8
    jazstl's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Looks really great, im form histria region and I love what i see. good stuf the Ilirians wont be the only thing to recrut in those regions...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Durin, your idea is awesome, i will be very glad to see Venetic units in EB!

    People in Northern Adriatic area were not really Celticised and retained their identity till Roman time - but sadly this was not represented in EB mods which is a miss for sure. In fact i wast researching myself and agree that 'Ekupeta' could be the right word to name the cavalry.

    The 2 units you suggest are perhaps very close to historical reality and i also would add a type of light axe-men levy infantry - there is enough evidence of battle axes used by Adriatic Veneti, as well as by Illyrian tribes in modern Slovenia.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    I like the idea of axemen for Veneti and Illyrians, bruh... please forward your sources to the team.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    https://www.academia.edu/7894586/Int...guistics_2013_

    look at this book

    ekupeta - ‘horse-rider’, i.e. ‘knight’ (down at page 29)

    so, if 'ekupeta' is singular, then plural would be... 'ekupeti' ?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Yes, ekupeta is the singular form...some scholars proposed something like 'ekupetaboi' but it is far from being proven...a "-i" plural would be totally possible in venetic but it would be an arbitrary recontruction..anyway yes, they could be called ekupeti (or better ekupetai) ^^

    representations of axemen in histro-venetic art are quite older (VI-V B.C.) but could be used to represent lower-class soldiers from III century

  13. #13

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Exactly what we need. Cheap flanking units... heaven.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    both 'ekupetai' and 'ekupeti' sounds well and may be historically correct indeed... (and more of my speculative variations: ekupetes, ekupetates, ekupetati, ekupetabes..., i am not a linguist, feel free to dismiss them )

    what about any words naming spearmen and axemen? any info known on them, or perhaps Latin or Etruscan words can be used ('gesati'/'hastati' for spearmen, perhaps?) If interested search Google for the word zatlaθ , Etruscan for 'axe-bearer'

    https://books.google.bg/books?id=tYp...%CE%B8&f=false

  15. #15

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    This is why I hate native names lol

  16. #16

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    http://prikachi.com/search.php?searc...i&query=veneti

    these are veneti infantry from Paeninsula Italica http://modtw.blogspot.bg/2007/09/veneti.html

    i find them rather historically accurate as a concept, except for the greaves on the spearmen

  17. #17

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    also i have read somewhere that blue clothing was characteristic for veneti

  18. #18

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    This is why I hate native names lol

    Well, I'm afraid you're going to have to get used to them. Listing every unit as "Native Name (English Name)" broke the UI and made for ugly scrolls and other issues. I went through the export_units last week and rectified that, so it only displays the native name, with the English translation in the first line of the description.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  19. #19

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Quintus, I am getting a bit tired of you constantly getting the wrong idea out of every word I say. It was just a joke about the uncertainty of translating ancient languages correctly, relax. I really dont give a damn how the units are called, as long as they have a historical basis.
    Last edited by Rad; March 16, 2016 at 11:50 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Mercenaries from Venetia

    Quote Originally Posted by satripor View Post
    both 'ekupetai' and 'ekupeti' sounds well and may be historically correct indeed... (and more of my speculative variations: ekupetes, ekupetates, ekupetati, ekupetabes..., i am not a linguist, feel free to dismiss them )

    what about any words naming spearmen and axemen? any info known on them, or perhaps Latin or Etruscan words can be used ('gesati'/'hastati' for spearmen, perhaps?) If interested search Google for the word zatlaθ , Etruscan for 'axe-bearer'
    We don't know venetic words for 'soldiers', 'spearmen' and so on....it has been found an inscription alluding to a 'miles', but it is thought to be a calque from latin...
    anyway, a venetic form 'milets' for soldier could be acceptable...but I have no idea about a valid plural form...miletoi? >____<

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