The pictorial preview of the new town and city battle-map models: Roman, Western Greek, Eastern Greek, Eastern/Semitic, and Celtic/Barbarian

[Roma_Victrix]

Welcome, all EB II fans and those who are curious about playing this mod! For the latter type of folks, allow this thread to serve as a little preview to what you can expect to see in the game when besieging enemy settlements or having your own settlements besieged by the enemy on the battle map. I've included every settlement model except for villages and small towns (who cares about those anyway? ), as well as nomadic camps. Below you can find the Roman, Western Greek, Eastern Greek, Eastern/Semitic, and Celtic/Barbarian large towns, cities, and huge cities (except for the Celts/Barbarians, who can only build settlements up to the large city level). I've even included one picture of the custom Ptolemaic Egyptian huge city, which looks very different from the standard huge city model belonging to other Eastern Greek factions.

Please, enjoy! I spent several hours taking screenshots, converting them from TGA to JPEG files via Paint, uploading them to Tumblr, and then arranging them here in an orderly fashion, so I certainly hope someone enjoys seeing these. Otherwise, all my work was all for naught! I hope it serves as a little advertisement for the mod, which could use a bit more showcasing of the incredibly hard work done by modders like Rafkos (xHolyCrusader was another one if I recall correctly). The other modders involved in making these are listed on EB II's Twitter page, which you should check regularly for updates.

In each spoiler tag I've included at least two additional pictures of each settlement model, sometimes four pictures, so by all means have a look at them all, not just the preliminary pic.

WESTERN GREEK HUGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/9y0Mw


WESTERN GREEK MINOR/LARGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/9y0Mw


WESTERN GREEK LARGE TOWN



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/9y0Mw


ROMAN HUGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/RrXPA


ROMAN MINOR/LARGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/RrXPA


ROMAN LARGE TOWN



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/RrXPA


EASTERN/SEMITIC HUGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/ejVz7


EASTERN/SEMITIC MINOR/LARGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/ejVz7


EASTERN/SEMITIC LARGE TOWN



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/ejVz7


EASTERN GREEK HUGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/tYkau


EASTERN GREEK MINOR/LARGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/tYkau


EASTERN GREEK LARGE TOWN



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/tYkau


BARBARIAN CELTIC MINOR/LARGE CITY



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/PSUfN


BARBARIAN CELTIC LARGE TOWN



MORE PICTURES:
http://imgur.com/a/PSUfN

[romanius24]

Thanks for this. I was thinking of doing some sort of review like this too. I have been playing a lot of sieges and tested the settlements.

They are really well done and i have seen the new AI defend them very well.

I have to say though, i hate the barbarian city model.
The idea is nice but i found pathfinding problems both outside and on the walls and i always have weird frame drops on that map only.
Units moving of and on walls doesnt look great, i think those ladders should be masked like in other settlements with towers.
Catapults cant break the walls, there are a lot of weird roads around the place and building layout isnt that great(some places are crowded and others empty)
Compared to the other settlements it feels very WIP.


The best thing about it is the visuals, the river near the walls, small forest and those walls are very beautiful.

[Roma_Victrix]

Thanks for this. I was thinking of doing some sort of review like this too. I have been playing a lot of sieges and tested the settlements.

They are really well done and i have seen the new AI defend them very well.

I have to say though, i hate the barbarian city model.
The idea is nice but i found pathfinding problems both outside and on the walls and i always have weird frame drops on that map only.
Units moving of and on walls doesnt look great, i think those ladders should be masked like in other settlements with towers.
Catapults cant break the walls, there are a lot of weird roads around the place and building layout isnt that great(some places are crowded and others empty)
Compared to the other settlements it feels very WIP.


The best thing about it is the visuals, the river near the walls, small forest and those walls are very beautiful.

Hey, no problem! Glad to be of service.

Yeah, I slightly share your opinion about the barbarian city model. If catapults can destroy huge city walls for Romans, Greeks, and Easterners, then I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to eventually destroy a wall section of a barbarian city. The fact that they are invincible in that regard is rather odd. I'm not sure if that was intentional, though, seeing how the model existed in the first release of EB II in 2014 (when the only artillery the game had were the Hellenistic Oxybeles bolt throwers, with no onagers or lithobolos to be found). Pathfinding is also pretty hectic, but I've played sieges enough times with barbarian cities to learn the quirks and work around them.

I also agree that, visually speaking, that settlement model is quite striking indeed.

[z3n]

It's worth noting some of the texture/model work was done by Arsaces II. In addition to that, we used DBM textures/models, although Rafkos/xHolyCrusader would know a lot more.

And lastly RedDevil created a couple of the Barbarian towns/models/textures back in the day.

[Roma_Victrix]

It's worth noting some of the texture/model work was done by Arsaces II. In addition to that, we used DBM textures/models, although Rafkos/xHolyCrusader would know a lot more.

And lastly RedDevil created a couple of the Barbarian towns/models/textures back in the day.

Awesome! Thanks for sharing those names.

I already knew about the base models from De Bello Mundi, but honestly I didn't think it was necessary to even bring it up. I remember them well. They looked absolutely barren compared to these towns and cities, which actually have civic structures like shrines, temples, theatres, baths, marketplaces, government halls, governor's palaces, and monuments like pillars, statues, and arches. The original DBM models had none of these, just a bunch of houses and empty squares (it was both underwhelming and unrealistic). In addition to that, EB II mod member Alin completely remade and retextured the walls of the Roman, Western Greek, Eastern Greek, and Eastern cities. DBM still uses the original vanilla Medieval II walls for cities.

[z3n]

That's true, there was also Jarlaxe's work in there as well. I contacted him (he works on Hegemonia TW for RTW) to ask for his permission/textures, I believe they're in use (or will be used) as well for some of the greek city models.


In short it was something of a community effort.

[Roma_Victrix]

That's true, there was also Jarlaxe's work in there as well. I contacted him (he works on Hegemonia TW for RTW) to ask for his permission/textures, I believe they're in use (or will be used) as well for some of the greek city models.


In short it was something of a community effort.

Cool...but...wait a minute...are you saying that you guys are still working on the Greek cities?

If that be the case, may I float the suggestion of having some custom battle map settlements, much like the Medieval II mod TATW has in abundance. Even RTW mods like Roma Surrectum II now have custom settlements for places like Athens, Rome, Alexandria, Carthage, Pergamon, etc. I know that it would be time-consuming (well, that's kind of an understatement), but it would be totally worth the effort. Imagine it: the Athenian acropolis in all its glory.

I know that Quintus has basically said the EB II team is done trying to negotiate or deal with the intractable Russian modding team for Natus ob Imperium, but you guys should seriously consider drafting some of their graphic artists and settlement creaters. These guys are artistic geniuses and, more than that, they actually make things like stairways leading up to the acropolis functional (i.e. your soldiers can literally walk up the flight of marble steps, which is more of a colored terrain ramp than an actual staircase, but still). It's really impressive work, at least as original and groundbreaking as the ancient Han Chinese style towns and cities made for the Romance of the Three Kingdoms mod.

[Roma_Victrix]

Although I did not take these screenshots, the recent work done by Rafkos and others (I'm assuming xHolyCrusader here) needs to be shown in regards to the nomadic camps. They now have wagons as defensive barriers!

[demagogos nicator]

The indestructabilitiy of barbarian walls is intentional as they were really almost indestructable by siege engines historically due to their special construciton (combination of stone, horizontal or vertical wooden beams and earthen embankments). More is explained in the preview bellow (the preview was posted also on TWC together with Areuakoi preview, but I have no time/lust to search for it):
http://www.moddb.com/mods/europa-barbarorum-2/news/settlement-mini-preview

[Roma_Victrix]

The indestructabilitiy of barbarian walls is intentional as they were really almost indestructable by siege engines historically due to their special construciton (combination of stone, horizontal or vertical wooden beams and earthen embankments). More is explained in the preview bellow (the preview was posted also on TWC together with Areuakoi preview, but I have no time/lust to search for it):
http://www.moddb.com/mods/europa-barbarorum-2/news/settlement-mini-preview

From that webpage:

The reason that the walls of the upper tiers are immune to the effects of ram or shot is due to their construction. The wall types which inspired the EBII barbarian walls, Murus Gallicus (used by the Aedui/Aruenoi), Ehrang type (Aedui/Aruernoi), Kelheim type (Boioi), the walls of Numantia (Areuakoi) and the Murus Decius (Getai) type, were all constructed of stone. All of these, with the possible exception of the walls from Numantia, used either horizontal or vertical wooden beams to add additional strength to the wall. In the case of the Murus Gallicus and Ehrang types these wooden beams were assembled in a criss-cross pattern, thus further reinforcing the wall and, as Julius Caesar noted in De Bello Gallico, highly resistant to battering rams. The Murus Gallicus and Kelheim type employed earthen embankments to the rear which added further protection from possible breeches.

Lol. Yeah, of course a battering ram isn't going to knock down a sturdy stone wall. That was true the world over in the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st centuries BC. Celtic oppida are not exceptions to the rule. Rammed earth and stone fortifications can still be destroyed by heavily concentrated artillery fire from pieces such as the lithoblos, palintone, ballista, and onager. If you can knock down a stone wall in Syria, you can knock down a stone wall in Gaul; one is not inherently more special than the other. These walls were built more than a thousand years before the existence of thicker walls like those in 16th-18th century "star forts" designed with low, thick, angled walls to resist gunpowder artillery barrages. As far as I know ancient Celts didn't build anything remotely as defensible or strong as a star fort, so I see this entire claim by the EB II team as incredibly dubious without further information.

In Jeff Kinard's Artillery: an Illustrated History of its Impact, he states that the Roman onager, originating as early as the 3rd century BC (although he makes it clear the Romans were slow in adopting artillery from the Greeks and Carthaginians), was able to hurl stone projectiles up to a few hundred yards (a 100 lb could be hurled 400 yards), each shot weighing up to 180 lbs (i.e. 82 kg). Even the less imposing artillery on the Roman side, the ballista (the two-handed torsion artillery piece described by Vitruvius in the late 1st century BC, in the time of Augustus), was able to fire stone ammunition weighing 60 lbs (27 kg) up to 550 yards, traveling at a speed of 115 miles per hour (185 kilometers per hour). The Jewish Roman historian Josephus tells us about the destructive power of the ballistae on both men and stone (!!!) fortifications during the siege of Jotapata in 67 AD (pp 16-17):

The engines could not be seen at a great distance, and so what was thrown at them was hard to be avoided; for the force with which these weapons threw stones and darts made them hurt several at a time, and the violent noise of the stones that were cast by the engines was so great, that they carried away the pinnacles of the wall, and broke off the corners of the towers; for no body of men could be so strong as not to be overthrown to the last rank by the largeness of the stones.

This was the effect of the ballista being fired; you're telling me that the lithobolos and onager (now available for recruitment in in EB II), with stone ammunition that was twice as heavy, couldn't knock down Celtic stone walls with enough heavy concentrated fire? Let's look at an example of a Celtiberian castro (hill fort), the San Cibrao de Las oppidum of northern Portugal. You think Roman artillery, which was damaging the stone walls of Jotapata, was incapable of penetrating this?

[Rafkos]

Also about the settlements, the gate animation bug is fixed for 2.2 as well as the "deploying units outside of the city" bug.

[romanius24]

Are there any changes coming to the barbarian towns? I think there might be some sort of problem with them. My frame rate drops to ~10 on that map. Something on the map is causing frame drops. I think its either pathfinding or the gates.

[Rafkos]

I can look at them. Is there any specific settlement level that causes that? You can use custom battle to test.

[romanius24]

Its the BARBARIAN CELTIC MINOR/LARGE CITY posted here.

For some reason the map always lags even if there are few troops. I noticed it gets worse at the gates.

[Yerevan]

This was the effect of the ballista being fired; you're telling me that the lithobolos and onager (now available for recruitment in in EB II), with stone ammunition that was twice as heavy, couldn't knock down Celtic stone walls with enough heavy concentrated fire? Let's look at an example of a Celtiberian castro (hill fort), the San Cibrao de Las oppidum of northern Portugal. You think Roman artillery, which was damaging the stone walls of Jotapata, was incapable of penetrating this?

I remember reading something about the very special architecture of oppidum. WHat madesome of their walls undestructable was that there were layers of earth intertwinned with the stones. It wasn't a stonewall. But Romans didn't need to make the walls fall, many times they were building ramps so you had this strange race between the romans biuiding their ramp and the sieged people trying to sur-elevate the walls.

About Jotapata, its walls didn't fall completaly I think. According to Flavius the romans got inside the city by treason. I have the book somewhere I can check.

[Roma_Victrix]

I remember reading something about the very special architecture of oppidum. WHat madesome of their walls undestructable was that there were layers of earth intertwinned with the stones. It wasn't a stonewall. But Romans didn't need to make the walls fall, many times they were building ramps so you had this strange race between the romans biuiding their ramp and the sieged people trying to sur-elevate the walls.

About Jotapata, its walls didn't fall completaly I think. According to Flavius the romans got inside the city by treason. I have the book somewhere I can check.

Thanks for your answer! I was unaware that the Celts basically had rammed earth walls lined with stone, which would have made them quite similar to contemporary ancient Han Chinese city walls made of rammed earth lined with either stone or bricks (plenty of surviving examples of that to this day). The elevated nature of many Celtic settlements on hilltops (i.e. the oppida) would have also made it harder to breach their defenses. You're also right about Roman siege engineers building giant ramps. The siege of Masada from 73-74 AD comes to mind.

Also about the settlements, the gate animation bug is fixed for 2.2 as well as the "deploying units outside of the city" bug.

Awesome! I always found that kind of annoying that some sieges would start with units stuck outside the walls of the city. This is good news.

[Rafkos]

The palisade animation bug (the one where a palisade moved a bit when playing destruction animation) is also fixed for 2.2. I will take a look at the barbarian city lag tomorrow, and hopefully fix it as well.

[HaHawk]

I will take a look at the barbarian city lag tomorrow, and hopefully fix it as well.

Thanks a lot for looking into this, Rafkos.

I personally just experienced this a few days ago when invading Uesontia (sp?), a small barbarian settlement without any walls east of Bibrakte. I think the problem was related to pathfinding somehow because the game slowed down for around 10 to 15 seconds right near the very beginning (I thought it was going to crash!) and then there were no more issues for the rest of the battle. Also, this happened when the enemy sallied out during a siege, if that makes any difference.

[Roma_Victrix]

The palisade animation bug (the one where a palisade moved a bit when playing destruction animation) is also fixed for 2.2. I will take a look at the barbarian city lag tomorrow, and hopefully fix it as well.

Awesome! You're just kicking ass and taking names lately, aren't you?

Real life picture of Rafkos:

[Roma_Victrix]

@Rafkos and xHolyCrusader and others: did you guys get rid of the unique Ptolemaic Egyptian settlements? I recently took Alexandria (now a huge city) from the Ptolemies as Koinon Hellenon and couldn't help but notice that the battle map settlement was a generic Eastern Greek huge city, just like the Seleucid, Kimmeros Bosporan, and Baktrian ones. Was this a conscious decision or was this somehow a mistake? I'm certainly not complaining...the huge city model of the Eastern Greeks still looks great; I was just surprised, is all.