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Thread: Research Thread: Croatia

  1. #81

    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthæus View Post
    I see. In that case I would advise to go with sailor depicted in statute of Zadar:
    helmet, shield (small round), axe/sabre and javelins.
    Helmet would be import from Italy or locally produced inspired by Italian helmets.

    I would even skip "gusar" (pirate) from unit name since piracy, while present was not so widespread.



    Pirate ship Sagitta (arrow) from Omiš
    This are only pictures that look credible of "Sagitta" (arrow).
    https://www.sagittapirateship.com/fu...style-j7tpfxm9
    more info here, they mad a wooden model too:

    https://www.sagittapirateship.com/building-the-ship

    Is this to small for the game ?

    She had 15 oarsmen on each side, a total of 30. Two Latin sails, a curved stern, paddle on the side of stern for control, and at the front part a bow bridge – as rostrum.
    So, Sagitta was a very specific ship, different from all other types of ships we know in the Adriatic.
    The greatest specificity of the ship is that Sagitta was attacking enemies with the bow - by breaking through the side of enemy ship with the rostrum. Rostrum was probably iron-bonded to be stronger.
    Interesting! Now that's something completely different! No, no its doable, if too small can be enlarged a bit. Hmmm, can use R2 barbarian ship as models_naval base, edit the bow model so it has rostrum, add Dromonarion sails.

    Gusars are just for the merc unit, the recruitable would be the non-merc Dalmatian Assault Marines. Because the port in the Attila map is just one, I'll limit it just one in the merc pool.

  2. #82
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Excellent.

    For the galleys, they are basically the same as ones Venice used. Some of those galleys were locally made (Ragusan), others were bought straight from Venetian Arsenal.
    So when you make an Venetian galley, just make sure its AOR recruitable in Dalmatia (Split province).

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    CROATIA - RESEARCH PART 2.

    - this is mostly (but not exclusively) about cavalry in late period
    (there will be part 3 about infantry, mercenaries, professional troops and other things I missed to mention)

    Arpadian period - 13th century

    Important tems:
    The vexillum “The flag” was an military unit which was raised in case of war and attached to king’s army. It was forerunner of banderial units, first mentioned in Croatian documents in the 13th century.
    Servientes were nobleman’s of armed retinue, consisted of his kinsmen and retainers called serviens (servientes / serjeants). This was in 13th century before f
    amiliaritas become widespread.

    Familiaritas - the “bastard feudalism" Familiares were members of middle and lower nobility which after oath of unconditional fidelity entered the service of their lords, for which they were chance improving their social status. They were adopted into household, given land, full supplies, stipends and other benefits.
    Main difference to “classic feudalism” was that service, as well as land grant, was for life - but not hereditary.
    Familiares soon became the basis of the nobility’s military power, and became and their main stronghold in maintaining the estates.
    Service was not only of military nature. Familiares with necessary abilities, would offer counsel, draft letters, represent their noble before the law or governed his castles and estates.

    Bishops and other other church prelates had their own retainers - prediales, which were in similar position as familiares.




    Angevin reforms and further developments (second part of 14th century - 15th century)




    Banderial system

    Anjou kings did not change much in terms of equipment and tactics, but did reform and refine the army. In short they clearly defined who can raise an army and how numerous it should be.

    Basic unit from 14th century onwards was called banderium (flag, banner).
    There were several types of banderium:

    • royal banderium which consisted of 1,000 horsemen
    • banderium of Ban (2 of those, one for Croatia & Dalmatia, and other for Slavonia)
    • banderiums of magnates (basically a private armies of mighty noble families consisting of their kinsmen, retainers (familiares) and mercenaries) and banderiums of church prelates (church being major landowners) consisting of 500 horsemen each
    • banderiums of counties (250 soldiers each)
    • banderiums of cities, infantry for defence of “free royal cities” in Slavonia


    There was significant difference in strength and composition of these units.
    Banderiums of king, ban, magnates and prelates were consisted of horseman, with core of heavy cavalry, light cavalry and at least some support of mounted crossbowmen. Actual ratio of heavy and light cavalry in banderium depended on available resources. Strength of banderium was finally proscribed 1492. and it consisted of 400 horseman, of which 200 were armored, and 200 were hussars.
    These were quality formations, often used in offensive operations outside borders (example battle of Varna in 1444.).


    Banderiums of counties were used defensively inside the borders; they were formed when general levy (insurrection) was proclaimed. These units consisted of lover nobility serving as light cavalry, but also infantry, and even armed peasants. As such they lacked equipment and discipline.


    The levy ( Generalis Exercitus / Insurrectio )
    The ban, as the supreme military commander of the army, issued a special declaration of insurrection and determined the muster area.
    While seen as ineffective and not used in some other parts of Kingdom, in Croatia
    levy gained importance, and was regulated in details since in 15th century Ottoman attacks became widespread and common occurrence.
    After fall of Bosnia, and especially after breakdown of professional royal army of Matthias Corvinus, Croatia was hard pressed.

    In such circumstances levy troops, along with magnates tried to contain akinji and martolos raids. There were some successes (especially when Ottomans were ambushed on return) but in general they were unable to protect the land from devastation, and to stop enemy conquest on their own. Only with the significan Habsburg help would Ottomans eventually be halted.


    ----------------------------

    Now lets see how this functioned in practice:


    Defenses against Ottomans envisioned by Sigismund of Luxemburg in 1435


    Croatian camp (tabor)

    • royal banderium
    • banderium of Ban of Croatia & Dalmatia
    • 3 banderiums of magnates (Dukes of Krbava, Cetina, Krk/Senj/Modruš)

    Slavonian camp (tabor)

    • banderium of Ban of Slavonia
    • 4 banderuims of magnates (duke of Blagaj, nobleman Toth) & prelates (Prior of Vrana - Knights Hospitallers, bishop of Zagreb)

    Usoran camp (tabor) (covering eastern Slavonia, northern Bosnia, southern Hungary and north-western Serbia)

    • banderium of Ban of Mácsó and Serbrenik
    • 4 magnates banderiums from east-Slavonia


    • 4 banderiums from countied of Slavonia
    • 6 banderiums from counties from south Hungary
    • Despot of Serbia
    • Bosnian troops


    ----------------------------

    Cavalry in the field - second half of 15th century

    (all pictures except crossbowmen actually depict troops from Croatia/SLavonia)


    Ban & his retinue

    • full armor (Gothic or Italian)
    • I would limit armored horses to general's unit



    Armored cavalry - Knights
    • those are magnates and their kinsmen, richer familiares, and some mercenaries
    • fully armored, mostly Gothic, but some in Italian armor
    • horses mostly unarmored
    • at this time maces would be used a lot, perhaps even more than sword



    Light Cavalry - Retainers (Familiares, Prediales)
    • lower nobles in service of magnate or bishop
    • they were unable to have whole armor, so would fight as lighter cavalry
    • mix of German and Italian equipment
    • a lot of swords would be of Schiavonesca type, but also maces would be used



    Mounted Crossbowmen
    • this is image of German mounted crossbowmen as I don't have any better
    • some of those would be Czech, Hungarian and Italian mercenaries



    Levy (insurectio) horseman of County Banderium
    • lower nobility, not in service of magnate or Ban
    • unarmored except helmet (and perhaps mail or brigandine shirt)
    • shield in this picture id typical for Croatia and Bosnia in 15th century
    • sword bould be of Schiavonesca type https://myarmoury.com/review_dt5152.html



    Hussars
    (no need to write details facts about them are well known)
    • same equipment as their Hungarian counterparts






    Last edited by Matthæus; February 22, 2018 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #84
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    So what is the difference between Gradukemti, Jobaggiones Castri and Sergeants? Are they different classes of soldiers? My understanding is that the Jobagionnes are castle garrison troops while the seargeants are sort of retainers of the nobles. What are the Gradukemti?

  5. #85

    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Love the literature research you have typed, but I'm not a big fan of using modern illustrations to depict armies, especially those vaguely representing something I've seen from the Met museum catalogue. If you know of any depictions or artifacts from Croatia during 13th to 15th century. Those might offer a more authentic and original look to the faction than a copy paste of Italians and Germans.

  6. #86
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    So what is the difference between Gradukemti, Jobaggiones Castri and Sergeants? Are they different classes of soldiers? My understanding is that the Jobagionnes are castle garrison troops while the seargeants are sort of retainers of the nobles. What are the Gradukemti?

    Croatian: "Gradukmeti" = Latin "Iobagiones castri" = "Hungarian Várjobbágy"
    Totally the same thing but said in 3 different languages.
    In modern English literature they are called "Castle warriors".
    (Literal translation of Cro. "gradukmet" would be "castle serf" which is actually a misleading description.)


    Now about who they were: 11th - 13th century Hungary, Slavonia and to lesser extent Croatia were communities of people in king’s service who lived in royal fortresses and preformed military services.
    They did not only guard the forts but had to send troops to royal army; as example in 13th century iobagiones from county of Gorica in Slavonia had to provide 200 infantry (pedites) and 15 armored horsemen.
    Territoriality they were organized by counties, and under command of county ispan.
    Iobagiones held landed property around the castle, were exempted of taxation and ruled over groups of “castle folk” (class of lower status) which tilled the land, but were not fully free themselves.
    For example they weren’t allowed to leave their service.

    Through the process disintegration of castle land they either become lover nobility or lost privileges and became peasant subservient to a feudal lord.
    Either way term iobagiones / gradukmeti remains present in sources but it lost its original meaning by the 14th century.
    Such unit should be present only in "early" period as foot spearmen.



    Sergeants are as you say.
    But by late 13th, early 14th century term is not used anymore in Croatia/Slavonia and replaced by familiares (which I explained earlier).


    --------------------------

    Now about some additional (and hopefully interesting) stuff about army organisation:



    Militia portalis

    In 15th century landowners had to equip and send troops according to number of to servile holdings (porta) in their possession.
    This was so in whole Kingdom of Hungary.
    Troops raised in such way were:


    • foot archers (shield, bow, sword)
    • mounted archers (not horse archers !)
    • light cavalry (lances, shields swords)

    Those troops in Slavonia / Croatia were under command of ban.

    Details varied according to period and geography. For example:
    in time of Sigismund of Luxemburg (1432) a soldier had to be equipped for every 20 serfs.
    Slavonian sabor (diet) of 1478. specifies the details of militia portalis organization: nobles with more than 25 serfs have to send one horseman and one infantryman.
    Ones with less have to serve personally (with or without additional infantryman according to wealth).

    Later in 1499. it was decided that nobles have to equip a light cavalrymen for every 33 serfs.


    Vlachs

    The term is used for originally Romance-speaking people living pastoral communities as shepherds and traders in the Dinaric mountains.
    By 14th century they were still not fully slavenized despite being having lost their language or at least being bilingual.

    Part of them lived semi-nomadic life while others were in possession of land and lived in villages.
    According to document written by ban Anž Frankapan from 1436.nomadicVlachs were supposed to serve as cavalry (“on horses with shields and swords”) or archers (“with arrows and swords”).
    Part of the document can be interpreted that Vlach villagers were to serve with hooked spears called “unča”.



    Professional troops in Croatia, Slavonia and Jajce banate

    Faced with constant Ottoman attacks, old feudal military organisation was at times too slow to react to raids or was overwhelmed by larger Ottoman formations.
    As reaction to difficult situation core of standing professional border army was formed.
    So, by second half of 15th century the military structure in Croatian-Bosnian border area was based on professional soldiers, so the military leadership could make use of the total military force throughout the year.

    Standing troops were:

    • troops “permanently under banners”: royal banderium (some 600 serving at the border), and banderium of Ban (500 cavalry + 200 additional infantry)
    • garrisons of the frontier forts
    • mercenaries hired by the towns and serving in the castles of various lords (unknown total numbers)



    Croatian-Bosnian castles received money from Kingdom of Hungary’s treasury for paying the soldiers in money (and in salt !) and we have precise data about sums in question.
    (context is important, by this time situation was dire because of constant warfare. Kingdom was almost broke, professional army of Crovinus gone, and countryside in Croatia suffered heavy material and human losses)

    According to Royal budgets from early 16th century (1513-14) there were cca 1,650 cavalry and 770 infantry serving as garrisons in for Croatia and Bosnia. The ratio is one third infantrymen and two thirds cavalry.
    The defense plan of 1503 calls for recruitment of similar professional force: 1650 cavalry and 600 infantry.


    • Cavalry is described as: 300 heavy cavalry, 500 foreign light cavalry, 200 hussars, 650 mounted soldiers of Croatian lords (they would organize and led the units, but would receive king's money for their upkeep ).


    • Infantry: As far as I could find most of those mentioned 600 or 770 professional infantrymen were armed with: hooked guns (Hakenbüchse), hand guns, crossbows


    These were soldiers paid from Royal treasury, but number of troops could be higher since Ban and nobles received substantial sums of money from Venice and Habsburgs as well as paying from their own sources.

    In times of war, these troops would be supplemented by raising banderiums of barona and prelates, soldiers provided by the towns (unknown numbers), noble levy and local levy (militia portalis) and mass levy.
    Also foreign mercenaries would be used depending on funds available or help sent by other Christians (Habsburg, Venice, Pope).


    Foreign Mercenaries in Croatia / Slavonia


    • Italian crossbowmen (Dalmatian cities, ban)
    • Czech Crossbowmen (ban)
    • German knights (ban, probably magnates)
    • Hungarian hussars (ban, captain of Senj)



    Croats as mercenaries in foreign armies


    • Hussars - employed by Venice. In sources they are called Stradiotti from Dalmatia.
    • Light & Heavy cavalry - employed by Habsburg and Venice. Croatian magnates entered service as Condottieri with their troops.

    Examples were: Krsto Frankapan and Ivan Karlović who fought for Maximilian I. Karlović even entered, with his troops, service of Venice bearing title of ban.
    Like I said many times before, desperate times. Magnates had a lot of experiance in warfare, but were broke because of the same warfare... and Venice and Habsburgs had cash.

    • Unspecified infantry employed by Habsburgs, also in service of before-mentioned magnates when they signed the condotta






    Last edited by Matthæus; March 01, 2018 at 02:28 PM.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    Love the literature research you have typed, but I'm not a big fan of using modern illustrations to depict armies, especially those vaguely representing something I've seen from the Met museum catalogue. If you know of any depictions or artifacts from Croatia during 13th to 15th century. Those might offer a more authentic and original look to the faction than a copy paste of Italians and Germans.
    I understood,
    but there are limitations because a lot was destroyed during 200 year wars with Ottomans, later negligence or just "old age".
    Not to mention that that Croatia was certainly not materially advanced as for example Belgium in those times. There was less art, and less survived to this day.

    And our most of our museums haven't actually entered digital age yet (no web extensive catalogues)
    Or even haven't got permanent exhibitions.
    You can't simply walk into Croatian history museum in Zagreb !

    Much of what we know comes from written sources, often lists of weapons sent to some fortress, pay lists, legislations or some other court files...
    Archaeology helps too, but its also limited.
    So you have to combine written with scarce material evidences and use some imagination and comparation to other eras of Europe.
    Of course I'm happy when someone does that work and draws an good reconstruction based on that.

    The modern reconstructions I use form proven authors: Velimir Vukšić, Višeslav Aralica and to lesser extent Zvonimir Grbašić and who ever draws for Osprey books.
    They are good at what they do, and there is research involved.

    For example Vukšić's picture of Újlaki Miklós / Nikola Iločki along with surviving effigies:


    Or this light cavalrymen (note the shield):
    https://ibb.co/bQH6JH
    Shields from Stećak gravestones from Bosnia:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gI8nhHFR53...iqslifs/17.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UkjiXhkykv...a2mM/s0/21.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bAyX-5IwZP...2ta4/s0/23.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4yGju9kUXc...0/P1050290.JPG

    Especially illustrations form Aralica are completely based on existing sources (written and material - as much as it can be):
    This is the book: https://www.amazon.com/Hrvatski-ratn.../dp/9531956138
    Example armor of Hrvoje Vukčić:
    original:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvoje..._Hrvatinic.jpg
    Aralica:
    http://i42.tinypic.com/2d85ohw.jpg


    About copy - paste
    Well a lot of weapons, armor and equipment was imported from Venice or Germany.
    When we are talking about armor, brigantines were produced locally, but all plate armor was bought abroad.
    So, yes look of rich noble was "german" when armor was bought from Innsbruck.


    Now, said all that I will send you or post here original material I can get my hands on.
    Btw there is a lot of depictions or artifacts in this thread, but I'm willing to sort them out for you. In fact I planned to combine all information gathered here in one structured document and send it to the moders.

    Just don't expect miracles

  8. #88
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Saints, Knights and wariors in late medieval art, only images that I haven't seen posted on this forum so far

    Works of artists from Dalmatia:

    author: Blaž Jurjev Trogiranin - 15th century




    author: Nikola Božidarević - 1513



    unknown author: st. Krševan - Zadar 14th century



    unknown author: unknown author: st. Krševan - Zadar 13th century


    author: Lovro Dobričević Martinov - 1448.



    Slavonia - from "Missal of Jurj of Topusko" - late 15th century

    St George in gilded gothic armor


    partially armored cavalyrmen


    unarmored infantrymen with smaller pavese shield and falschion or messer



    And from Germany:

    Der Crabaten slacht (Leonhard Beck, 1515)

    showing Croatian light cavalry being ass-kicked by the Turks, inspired by disastrous defeat at Krbava field in 1493.
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 03, 2018 at 04:33 AM.

  9. #89
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    This is the last part of "material sources".
    If there is more I'm not aware of their existence, or just cant get information without buying additional literature or driving to museum somewhere.

    found this in meantime:

    Zadar 14th century
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    details form one of Reliquaryes



    from the chest of St. Simeon
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chest_of_Saint_Simeon



    there clothing of nobles ca be seen.


    even some 14th textile survived




    ------------------------
    Now lets look into neighborhood a bit:

    Gothic frescoes from Istria (place called Beram, 15th century work of "Vincent from Kastav").
    Istria, while partially inhabited by Croats, was never part of Kingdom of Croatia (of Hungary) but HRE.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Knights and heavy armored infantry are probably Germans





    [/url] [url=https://ibb.co/dipPq7]
    but these light cavalrymen are probably from Croatia or Bosnia (behind the musicians)



    There are late gothic frescoes in northern Croatia (Petrovina, Martinščina ...) but they are damaged.
    I have detailed description, but and I can't find good enough pictures.

    A bit from Bosnia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    14th/15th century Helmets, most are from Maglaj fortresses



    (one in the middle here is from earlier period, and its nasal is broken)

    Tombstone of Bosnian king (15th century) - this is reconstruction, fragments can be seen in Zemaljski muzej in Sarajevo


    Royal seals


    shields, popular in Bosnia, and Croatia in 15th century (carvings from gravestones)



    polearms& various other weapons








    So that's it for research, now I will update my unit recommendations to reflect all information gathered
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 05, 2018 at 02:34 PM.

  10. #90
    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Thank you for all the research and assistance.
    I have multiple units done already but ofc I need as much visual and textual info as I can gather.
    Overall there will be many similarities between the croatian and hungarian roster, but I am looking also to make the croatians stand out as well and not be a second hungarian roster with croatian CoAs.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    Thank you for all the research and assistance.
    I have multiple units done already but ofc I need as much visual and textual info as I can gather.
    Overall there will be many similarities between the croatian and hungarian roster, but I am looking also to make the croatians stand out as well and not be a second hungarian roster with croatian CoAs.
    It was my pleasure to help

    Now in comparison to Hungary there are a lot of similarities. Much can be "copied" from Hungary to ease the work.
    But there are some differences as well, in roster:
    2 most important ones are:
    - Croatia has no horsearchers
    - Croatia should have some additional militia units, to represent the Dalmatian communes
    -Additionally I have on my revised list some other non-militia units that are not present in Hungarian roster.

    I will complete the proposed list in few days.

    found some additional modern reconstructions;
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    1441 battle near Samobor,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Samobor


    Hunyadi's armies mid-15th century


    Frankapans in 15th century

    Last edited by Matthæus; March 06, 2018 at 03:39 PM.

  12. #92
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Looking forward to seeing the croatian non militia units not present in the hungarian roster.

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Well,
    I have something like this in mind.


    Question is is it balanced enough and how will it work with other factions.
    I guess some units could be pushed up or down a tier, depending. Also I'm not sure if there should be "dismounted" variants of knights and retainers as separate unit when cavalry can dismount in game.
    For example, it has more
    noticeable levy units in later periods while other factions have most of them early on.
    Also a lot can be scavenged from other factions, by selecting ones with most similiarities.


    @Ltd
    what did you plan if we can know ?


    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    EARLY



    Ban (Early)
    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    -info: General’s unit

    Armed Peasants
    -unit type: Very Light Spear Infantry
    -info: can be re-skin of existing unit

    Levy Spearmen
    -unit type: Light Spear Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Spear Militia
    -unit type: Medium Spear Infantry
    -recruitable: in cities
    -info: can be copy paste from Italian factions
    Castle warriors
    -local name: Gradukmeti
    -unit type: Medium Spear Infantry
    -info: similar to “Sergeant spearmen” of other Hungary, can be their re-skin
    -recruitable: rural areas


    Communal Nobles (Early)
    -unit type: Heavy Melee Infantry
    -info: armored swordsmen
    -recruitable: in cities
    Axeman
    -unit type: Light Melee Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    -info: we are talking about 1 handed axes here. I'm still not sure if this unit is needed at all.
    Dismounted Retainers (Early)
    -local name: Servientes Pedites (or sth. my Latin is bad)
    -unit type: Medium Melee Infantry
    -info: swordsmen, this is infantry variant of unit “Croatian cavalry”
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Dismounted Knights (Early)
    -local name: Vitezovi (dismounted)
    -unit type: Heavy Melee Infantry
    -info: swordsmen, this is infantry variant of unit “Knights”
    -recruitable: rural areas


    Peasant Archers

    -unit type: Very Light Bow Infantry
    -existing “Peasant archer” unit can be used
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Foot Archers (Early)
    -unit type: Light Bow Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Archer Militia
    -unit type: Light Bow Infantry
    -recruitable: urban areas
    -info: these would be armed with composite bows
    Crossbow Militia
    -unit type: Light Crossbow Infantry
    -recruitable: in cities
    Balistarii
    -unit type: Medium Crossbow Infantry
    -recruitable: in cities
    Slingers
    -unit type: Light Slingers
    -recruitable: rural areas

    Dalmatian Sailors
    -unit type: Light Skirmishers
    -info, unarmored skirmishers with javelins / axe, mace, sabre
    -recruitable: if possible only in provinces with sea access

    Retainers (Early)
    -local name: Servientes
    -unit type: Medium Melee Cavalry
    -info: this is existing unit “Croatian cavalry” renamed


    Knights (Early)
    -local name: Vitezovi
    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    -info: can be re-skin of existing “Knight” units

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    HIGH

    Ban (High)

    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    -info: General’s unit;
    these were troops of Ban’s own banderium

    Levy Spearmen (High)
    -unit type: Light Spear Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Communal Spearmen
    -unit type: Medium Spear Infantry
    -recruitable: in cities
    -info: not to be confused with lightly armored Genovese unit of the same name. These should have coat-of-plates or brigandine vests.
    Spear Serjeants (High)
    -unit type: Medium Spear Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Vlach Hooked Spearmen
    -unit type: Medium Spear Infantry
    -info: settled Vlachs, villagers, were to serve their lord with hooked spears called “unča”.

    Communal Nobles (High)

    -unit type: Heavy Melee Infantry
    -info: armored swordsmen
    -recruitable: in cities
    Dismounted Retainers (High)
    -local name: Familiares (dismounted)
    -unit type: Medium Melee Infantry
    -info: swordsmen, this is infantry variant of unit “Retainers”
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Dismounted Knights (High)
    -local name: Vitezovi (dismounted)
    -unit type: Heavy Melee Infantry
    -info: swordsmen, this is infantry variant of unit “Knights”
    -recruitable: rural areas

    Foot Archers (High)
    -unit type: Light Bow Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Communal Archers
    -unit type: Medium Bow Infantry
    -recruitable: urban areas
    -info: these would be armed with composite bows
    Balistarii (High)
    -unit type: Heavy Crossbow Infantry
    -recruitable: in cities
    Heavy Crossbowmen
    -unit type: Medium Crossbow Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    -info: copy-paste from Hungarian roster.

    Retainers (High)
    -local name: Familiares
    -unit type: Medium Melee Cavalry

    Knights (High)
    -local name: Vitezovi
    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    *Prior of Vrana (High)
    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    -info: Knights Hospitallers - possible to recruit only 1 unit.
    Copy / paste existing hospitaller unit from KOJ.

    Vlach Mounted Crossbowmen

    -unit type: Light Crossbow Cavalry
    -info: Nomadic Vlachs - herdsman were to serve their lord with “on horses… with sword and arrows”. Sources are bit unclear, these could be horsearchers, but I don’t believe it was the case.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    LATE

    Ban (Late)
    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    -info: General’s unit, these were professional troops of Ban’s own banderium which was one of “permanent flags”, a core of standing army.

    Levy Spearmen (Late)
    -unit type: Light Spear Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Pavese Spearmen (Late)
    -local name: Pavisari
    -unit type: Medium Spear Infantry
    -info: decided to merge urban and rural crossbowmen at this stage as they were similar at this stage.

    Levy Billmen
    -unit type: Medium Polearm Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Halberdiers
    -unit type: Heavy Polearm Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas, cities
    Comunal Man-at-Arms
    -unit type: Heavy Polearm Infantry
    -recruitable: cities
    -info: professional guards

    Dismounted Retainers (High)
    -local name: Familiares (dismounted)
    -unit type: Medium Melee Infantry
    -info: swordsmen, this is infantry variant of unit “Retainers”
    -recruitable: rural areas
    Dismounted Knights (Late)
    -local name: Vitezovi (dismounted)
    -unit type: Heavy Melee Infantry
    -info: swordsmen, this is infantry variant of unit “Knights”
    -recruitable: rural areas

    Foot Archers (Late)
    -unit type: Light Bow Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    -info: archers of select levy, armed with shortbows, shields and. “Korda” as secondary weapon. Koda is local name for what is in Germany called “grosse Messer” or “lange Messer”

    Pavise Crossbowmen

    -unit type: Heavy Crossbow Infantry
    -recruitable: rural areas, cities
    -info: professional fortress garrisons, infantry troops, or city guards. Decided to merge urban and rural crossbowmen at this stage as they were similar at this stage. Bit we can have different units if needed.

    Handgunners
    -local name: Puškari
    -unit type: Light Gunners
    -recruitable: rural areas, cities
    -info: professional fortress garrisons, infantry troops, or city guards. Can be copy of “Ragusani Cakoni” from Serbian rooster, just I don’t want that the name implies that all those handgunners were from Dubrovnik.
    Arquebusiers
    -local name: Arkebuziri
    -unit type: Medium Gunners
    -recruitable: rural areas, cities
    -info: professional fortress garrisons, infantry troops, or city guards armed with “hooked guns”. “Korda” as secondary weapon. Koda is local name for what is in Germany called “grosse Messer” or “lange Messer”.
    Basically I wanted to separate lighter early firearms of early 15th century from later improved “hooked guns”.

    Retainers (Late)
    -local name: Familiares
    -unit type: Medium Melee Cavalry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    -info: lighter cavalry component (in comparison to knights) of magnates or prelates banderium.
    Levy cavalry (Late)
    -unit type: Light Melee Cavalry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    -info: unarmored horseman of levy system (militia portalis - insurrectio) which fought in couny banderiums. Perhaps should be in lower tiers also.
    Hussars
    -unit type: Light Melee Cavalry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    -info: reskin of Hungarian hussars

    Knights (Late)
    -local name: Vitezovi
    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    -recruitable: rural areas
    *Prior of Vrana (Late)
    -unit type: Heavy Shock Cavalry
    -info: at this period it was a local noble who was administrator of Hospitaller estates. As landowner obliged to serve in the army with its own banderrium. Possible to recruit only 1 unit. Copy / paste existing hospitaller unit from KOJ.

    Mounted Crossbowmen (Late)

    -unit type: Medium Crossbow Cavalry
    -recruitable: rural areas, cities
    -info: can be copy-paste of Czech unit

    Possible additions:
    Uskoks as light infantry raiders of some kind (whey are known for firearms later... this early, I'd have to look). They were quite infamous later in 16-17th century in Klis and Senj but, their beginnings are in 1480's around Neretva river....

    -------------------------


    PS
    thanks
    matija191 for his input, it encouraged me to look further

    Last edited by Matthæus; March 19, 2018 at 12:57 PM.

  14. #94
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Very good research!

  15. #95

    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Peasants should definitely be something provided as a city garrison unit, rather than a recruitable unit, because historically they're the same thing as a levy force.

  16. #96
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    Peasants should definitely be something provided as a city garrison unit, rather than a recruitable unit, because historically they're the same thing as a levy force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    Peasants should definitely be something provided as a city garrison unit, rather than a recruitable unit, because historically they're the same thing as a levy force.
    yeah.
    I was thinking about how units were recruited historically, not necessarily how they should be recruited in game.
    How exactly will the recruitment process in mod function ?
    Like in Charlemagne with 3 types of settlement and garissons ?

    About the levy, there were 2 types;
    select levy (militia portalis) where on every 20 or 33 peasants one archer and light cavalymen were raised.
    general levy (insurrectio) all nobles (not serving already) had to serve, and armed peasants if situation was critical (which was often in late 15th century).

    So there were several types of units provided by the levy.
    They would form in county banderiums (county is territorial and administative unit) and at muster point join rest of the army.
    Whole army could reach 10,000-15,000 people.

    But effectiveness was limited, levy units were second-rate quality.
    And it was a bad idea to send peasants to battle in open fields, but it did happen at times.

  17. #97
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Great roster. Hope if you don't mind if we steal this research and use it for our own purposes

    Did the croats use war wagons?

  18. #98
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Great roster. Hope if you don't mind if we steal this research and use it for our own purposes
    Thanks... and steal away


    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Did the croats use war wagons?
    It was known after Hussute wars. A lot of Czech mercenaries were around at that time.

    About its use... I know at least at least one example of its use at Samobor (its small town near Zagreb) in 1441.

    Looking at "big picture" Croatian contingents fought with Hungarian army which used it a lot in times of Janos Hunyadi.
    For example at Varna there were 2-4,000 Croats under Ban Talovac and bishopic banderiums.
    "Wagenburg" (war wagon fort) was used there, and Talovac actually defended it against Ottoman assault.

  19. #99
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    I said it was done, but just a bit more:

    Frescoes from NW Croatia
    Unfortunately they are damaged, and some pictures are not in good resolution

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Soldiers & Weapons


    some commoner clothing:


    pictures are from:
    https://hrcak.srce.hr/65607
    https://hrcak.srce.hr/104168



    Still there is precious description of equipment of common soldiers:

    I only translated this to English, credit for research goes to original authors:
    Matija Horvat: Sudjelovanje hrvatskih križara u Bitki Naroda na Varni 10. studenog 1444. godine


    Equipment and weapons of Crusaders from Croatia and Slavonia
    (the Crusade in question is Battle at Varna in 1444.)

    Arms and equipment of knights and soldiers from Croatia and Slavonia did not differ in any way from knights from the rest of Central and Western Europe.
    Croatian higher nobles bought armors in large manufacturing centers from Germany (eg Augsburg or Innsbruck) and Italy (eg Milan), and and they did not differ from, for example, French or German knights, while lower nobles, and others, could acquire weapons and weapons in local cities such as Dubrovnik.

    Thanks to the remnants of earlier times, such as preserved church frescoes, we can more closely describe the appearance of ordinary Crusaders from Croatia and Slavonia who fought at Varna. there are several Gothic wall paintings in the parish church of St. Petra in Petrovina, from the first half of the fifteenth century.

    These paintings depict the passion of Christ, and some of them there are soldiers. On the north wall of the sanctuary is a picture depicting Christ in front of Pilatus behind Christ, there are three soldiers, two of which are fully armored with plated armor and mail shirt.
    The front figure wears a helmet type called iron hat and a gilded armor for shoulder and arm, while the other carries the bascinet helmet.
    On the scene showing the Christ's resurrection on the northeastern wall of the shrine, three soldiers are also depicted - the left-most figure wearing an iron hat on his head is protected by brigantine and equipped with a sword and a shield of oval shape. The soldier next to him wears an iron hat and one on the extreme right has a bascinet, a brigantine and a paloš (sabre, messer).
    Behind him head of another guard is visible, protected by the bascinet. In the picture depicting Christ's Crucifixion, several soldiers were shown - among them are horsemen. Soldiers are all
    identically equipped: dressed in shirts (brigantine ?) and wearing caps. The exception is a pedestrian next to Christ on its right, which has a shield on his back ( a large pavise of almond shape) and pedestrians that follow the horsemen: the first on the left carries a small cavalry pavise, the other carries a plate armor and bascinet, and the third pavise shield.

    Also on the frescoes in the church of St. Ivan in Ivanić Miljanski, and which portray scenes from the Bible, dating back to 1447 and 1450., there are several portraits of saints and warriors with contemporary equipment.
    Thus, on the south wall of the sanctuary is a display of Judas Taddeus armed with a great battle ax, in the southeastern wall of the Apostle Philip is armed with a sword, and a scene where the executioner equipped with a paloš (sabre, messer) surrenders the head of John the Baptist to Salome.
    On the north wall of the sail the sanctuary is depicted by the “Gifts of the Three Kings”, which are followed by the horsemen and pedestrians. These are all armed with spears; most horsemen carry iron hats while some have some bascinets; and some have leather, and scale protection covering their neck and shoulders (coifs). The two are equipped with barbuta helmets. But the most interesting illustration is on the western part of the southern wall of the ship on the scene of laying Christ's body in the tomb.
    There are two heavy pedestrians in front of the grave: the left head has an iron hat on his neck and shoulders protected by the leather lined armor and wearing a green shirt / brigantine. Under all that he is protected with a mail shirt and he is wearing plate armor on arms and legs. He was armed with a typical heavy-duty weapon at that time: a poleaxe on long pole. The soldier on the left is not equipped identically, but he does not carry helmet, and the weapons are not visible.

  20. #100
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Research Thread: Croatia

    Hi,
    I made 2 models of weapons called korda of paloš (in german - messer).
    Accompanying textures are taken from photos.
    It would be personal defense weapon of arquebusiers, archers and crossbowmen in 15th century.



    If you want them - you can have them. I will send them via PM.

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