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Thread: The House of Caves

  1. #21
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Can you guys give us the original phrase from Temistios 16 in Greek? I'd like to try to verify by myself the meaning, is it possible? .. I'm intrigued by this "Uncanny Flame", in particular I would like to see what's the ancient Greek for "uncanny".

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    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Bingo! Themistius, Oration 16 as quoted on page 143 of Noel Lenski's article 'Adrianople, Contemporary Reactions'. (Transactions of the American Philological Association, Vol. 127, pp. 129-168.)

    Diocle, you can download it here. I would be keenly interested in the different translations as that will give me options to choose from as a writer.

    https://www.academia.edu/2490106/Ini..._of_Adrianople

  3. #23
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Can you guys give us the original phrase from Temistios 16 in Greek? I'd like to try to verify by myself the meaning, is it possible? .. I'm intrigued by this "Uncanny Flame", in particular I would like to see what's the ancient Greek for "uncanny".
    The reference is 206d. The phrase in the Greek is τῆς ἀτόπου ϕλογὸς.

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Renatus, at the risk of sounding like a fan-boy, do you have a copy of your paper I could read?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    Renatus, at the risk of sounding like a fan-boy, do you have a copy of your paper I could read?
    Don't worry; I'm a sucker for flattery! When you say my 'paper', do you mean my presentation on Adrianople? As it happens, I did write that up for the Hadrianic Society Bulletin and could let you have a copy, if that is what you're after. If I have misunderstood, I shall not be offended if you say that is not what you want.

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by Renatus
    The reference is 206d. The phrase in the Greek is τῆς ἀτόπου ϕλογὸς.
    " ά-τοπος, -ον " means: "Inconvenience, extravagant, absurd, foolish, silly" (Attic authors) referring to things and people, it's also given a significantly more negative coloring, such as: "indecent, disgusting, pitiful" (Thucydides) and also "bad, evil" (New Testament)
    Instead, about " φλόξ, φλογός, ή ", coming from the verb " φλέγω ", there is no problem, it's " flame, fire, stake ".

    So, I think that this slight ambiguity, surrounding " ά-τοπος ", may add an interesting shade to the title of the novel, making it even more " palatable " and " tempting " (at least for me, being quite interested in the "unfortunate", "fortuitous" and "accidental" deaths of the Roman Caesars around the middle of IV century)!

    Thanks for the help and, once again, congrats to SBH for his choice.

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    That would be great - will you email it to me (fdhagan@gmail.com)? Or is there another method you prefer? Dropbox or something? I look forward to reading your presentation!

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    " ά-τοπος, -ον " means: "Inconvenience, extravagant, absurd, foolish, silly" (Attic authors) referring to things and people, it's also given a significantly more negative coloring, such as: "indecent, disgusting, pitiful" (Thucydides) and also "bad, evil" (New Testament)
    Instead, about " φλόξ, φλογός, ή ", coming from the verb " φλέγω ", there is no problem, it's " flame, fire, stake ".

    So, I think that this slight ambiguity, surrounding " ά-τοπος ", may add an interesting shade to the title of the novel, making it even more " palatable " and " tempting " (at least for me, being quite interested in the "unfortunate", "fortuitous" and "accidental" deaths of the Roman Caesars around the middle of IV century)!

    Thanks for the help and, once again, congrats to SBH for his choice.
    Interesting! Thanks for that, Diocle - that allows me some latitude when it comes to using that quote!

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    According to Liddell & Scott, the primary meaning of ἄτοπος is 'out of place, out of the way'. This leads to a number of subsidiary meanings, generally signifying the strange, unnatural or harmful. I do not like Lenski's use of 'uncanny', not because it does not accurately represent the Greek (I am not qualified to express an opinion on that) but because it does not read well in English. 'The attack of the uncanny flame', even allowing for the rhetoric, makes little sense and 'uncanny' is, in my opinion, too weak a word to convey the devastating effect of the Gothic invasion of the Roman territories, which I assume that Themistius was intending to convey. The translation that I have (Peter Heather and David Moncur) speaks of 'the onset of the monstrous flame', which seems better to me. 'Monstrous' is one of the subsidiary meanings listed by Liddell & Scott. I suppose that, if one wanted to get away from 'uncanny', one might consider using a word like 'alien', which conveys the sense of something foreign, strange and, perhaps, somewhat menacing, although even that seems rather weak in the circumstances.

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    That would be great - will you email it to me (fdhagan@gmail.com)? Or is there another method you prefer? Dropbox or something? I look forward to reading your presentation!
    I have e-mailed this to you. I hope that it is OK. If not, do let me know.

    Incidentally, I took delivery today of Books 2 & 3 of 'The Janus Eagle'. I somehow missed the publication of Book 2, so it is some time since I read Book 1. I hope that I can pick up the threads!

  11. #31
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by Renatus View Post
    According to Liddell & Scott, the primary meaning of ἄτοπος is 'out of place, out of the way'. This leads to a number of subsidiary meanings, generally signifying the strange, unnatural or harmful. I do not like Lenski's use of 'uncanny', not because it does not accurately represent the Greek (I am not qualified to express an opinion on that) but because it does not read well in English. 'The attack of the uncanny flame', even allowing for the rhetoric, makes little sense and 'uncanny' is, in my opinion, too weak a word to convey the devastating effect of the Gothic invasion of the Roman territories, which I assume that Themistius was intending to convey. The translation that I have (Peter Heather and David Moncur) speaks of 'the onset of the monstrous flame', which seems better to me. 'Monstrous' is one of the subsidiary meanings listed by Liddell & Scott. I suppose that, if one wanted to get away from 'uncanny', one might consider using a word like 'alien', which conveys the sense of something foreign, strange and, perhaps, somewhat menacing, although even that seems rather weak in the circumstances.
    I should not comment about the use of "uncanny", English is not my language, I can't get all the shades implied in the words and in their sounds/meanings, but please let me add just a small note, the matter is too much interesting for me.

    Yes Renatus, as you said, the effects were devastating but we are talking of the beginning, the fire was monstrous after Adrianople, but we are talking of the battle, and there, at Adrianople, the fire was smaller, it was much smaller, just a small rural house casually set on fire for an inexplicable string of casual circumstances, a small house in which a Roman Emperor lost his life, his reputation, his army and also the hope to keep the Goths out of the borders.
    So, how can we describe this small fire of Adrianople, about which few are the sources and even fewer are the witnesses? How can we describe the small 'flame' from which the 'enormous fire' started? How can we describe the beginning?
    We do not even know for sure about what actually happened at Adrianople, we are not sure (and Ammianus with us) about the fate of the Emperor, we are not sure if he died in that small house, during or before that small fire. Nobody ever found the house, or the traces of that small fire, nobody found the corpse of the Caesar of Rome. We know just this, the Fall of the Western Part begun at Adrianople, there, exactly in that place the enormous fire began and if we need to search for a point in which the beginning has begun, well, the small flame in the small country house is the right place, and "uncanny" is in my opinion the right choice, or better, the perfect choice to describe it.

    What I've written works only assuming I've fully understood all the implications about the use of an adjective such as 'uncanny' in English and sadly this is the weak point of my whole argument.

  12. #32
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    This is an interesting discussion for me as it involves nuances of language and by implication interpretation/subtext. Lenski, at n. 69 of the referenced paper above, clearly alludes to Themistius using the image of flames to represent not just the 'monstrous'/'uncanny'/'alien' or even 'out of the place/way' onslaught of the Goths in general but to Valen's death in particular. The shock of the barbarian invasion is magnified via in its monstrosity by the horrific death of an emperor of Rome by flames (whether they be the ones in the farm house or indeed the image of flames on the battlefield set alight by the Goths as a metonym for the war itself). Themistius is elevating a single image/effect into a larger rhetorical symbol.

    What I find attractive about the use of 'uncanny' as a writer is how it works as a piece of poetical imagery. If you read the rest of the quotation by Lenksi, you will see an interesting use of negative imagery building on the 'uncanny' adjective in relation to the onset of the Goths: ' . . . uncrossable mountains (now crossed) . . . unfordable rivers (now crossed) . . . impassable wastes (now breached) . . .' Uncanny alludes nicely to the almost otherworldly or monstrous or alien ability of these barbarians to surmount previously insurmountable obstacles. Uncanny also allows us to appreciate the impact upon Romans of the emperor's death upon their psyche. Valen's death was an uncanny death.

    And while other synonyms will work, I do find 'uncanny' attractive if only for that negative twist it conveys. I tend to be drawn to these sorts of phrases more than others: . . . the unbowed standards, for example, instead of upright. Perhaps it is the perverse reader in me!

    Renatus, I hope you find Books 2 and 3 interesting. The more I wrote and researched them, the more I have realised how little Armenian history is understood in relation to Rome as it is taught here. It has been quite a learning curve! And thanks for the write-up. I have converted into PDF format and will read it tonight when I return from work. I am looking forward to it!

  13. #33
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    You may consider the "fire" as a very Christian-related Topos, either.
    Given the religious conflicts Valens had (he was an Arrian Christian and presecuted the *Nicenes*/Catholics).

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    This thread is an interesting and beautiful reading, may I ask another little help? This: the etymology of the adjective "uncanny".

    Google has some silly problem in translating it into Italian, from what I can understand, finding the corresponding Italian translation it's not an easy task, so, the word and its history have become quite attractive for me.
    Consider that my English Dictionary suggests the followings meanings: "misterioso, arcano, soprannaturale, sinistro" and they make the adjective simply glorious and gorgeous in my personal opinion and taste, in English they are synonyms, of course, so translating the translation, they are: "mysterious, arcane, supernatural, sinister or ominous" and if I think about Adrianople and what preceded it, if I think about its campaign, from the beginning to its unexpected and tragic epilogue, about the battle itself and its spectacular but, in some way, fortuitous dynamics, linked to a capricious fate, if I think about the tragic but in some way mysterious death of the Emperor himself, surrounded by a disturbing veil of superstitious Pagan predictions reported by the Pagan Ammianus and synthesizable in that horrifying Greek quote in Book XXXI, 14, 8: "ἐν πεδίοισι Μίμαντος ἀγαιομένοιο ῎Αρηος (" When in Mimas' plains the war-god Ares rages. ") (*) , well, let me say that such adjectives as "mysterious, arcane, supernatural, sinister, omnious", synonimous of the powerful (because simple) "uncanny", are perfect to describe my feelings, as reader, in front of the falme ignited at Adrianople.





    (*)Sorry but I MUST quote my UNANSWERED riddle, consider it just as an 'uncanny' coincidence: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14033229

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by Gäiten View Post
    Somewhat related to Adrianople and Valens, a very interesting interesting article by Ilkka Syvanne about Emperor Decius and the Battle of the Abrittus (251AD).

    http://www.academia.edu/5313008/The_Reign_of_Decius

    A catastrophic Roman defeat and an emperor killed by Gothic warriors
    You are right, the battle of Abrittus is a little bit forgotten defeat in comparison of famous defeats at Cannae, Arausio, Teutoburg forest, Edessa and Adrianople.

    Thanks for posting this very interesting and also provocative article, at least in terms of Roman cavalry army and the depiction of the war and battle itself. The article forced me to think heavily on the mentioned things and I´m a little unsettled after reading it.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    Lenski, at n. 69 of the referenced paper above, clearly alludes to Themistius using the image of flames to represent not just the 'monstrous'/'uncanny'/'alien' or even 'out of the place/way' onslaught of the Goths in general but to Valen's death in particular.
    It is true that, in the passage to which this note relates, Lenski allows for the possibility that Themistius is referring to the depredations of the Goths. However, he prefers to see him as referring to the death of Valens. I do not agree. Consider another word in the passage from Themistius,ἐπιδρομήν. Again according to Liddell & Scott, ἐπιδρομή is a noun meaning 'running over, inroad'. It can also mean 'raid' or 'attack' but, generally speaking, it does not seem appropriate to an assault upon an isolated farmhouse. In my view, Themistius is referring to the Gothic onslaught as a conflagration engulfing the whole of Thrace. In this context, 'uncanny' (in current English parlance meaning 'weird, mysterious') is, as I have suggested, too weak and subtle. Heather and Moncur's 'monstrous' combines the qualities of strangeness and size, which seems to me to be better. Another possibility that occurs to me, which also conveys the apparent ability of the Goths to overcome impossible obstacles, is 'superhuman flame' provided, of course, that you do not mind mixed metaphors!

  17. #37
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    I have converted into PDF format
    How did you do that? I'd like to do that myself. (You can tell that I'm something of a technophobe!)

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by tomySVK View Post
    You are right, the battle of Abrittus is a little bit forgotten defeat in comparison of famous defeats at Cannae, Arausio, Teutoburg forest, Edessa and Adrianople.

    Thanks for posting this very interesting and also provocative article, at least in terms of Roman cavalry army and the depiction of the war and battle itself. The article forced me to think heavily on the mentioned things and I´m a little unsettled after reading it.
    You are welcome.

    It is an interesting scenario what would have happened after this defeat, if these Goths would not have been raiders /and returned), but would have migrated into the Thracia and the Balkan to settle here.
    Two decades later (267-270AD) they tried and then the Romans could defeat them completely.
    Some decades later (appr. 265AD) the Goths began a massive migration

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  19. #39
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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    I would be keenly interested in the different translations as that will give me options to choose from as a writer.
    In the search for alternatives, I found a 1684 edition of Themistius' orations with a parallel Latin translation. The Latin reads, 'postque deplorandum istius incendii vastitatem', which I translate as 'after the lamentable devastation of this conflagration'. I am not sure that this helps very much, other than to indicate that the translator saw the passage as relating to the general destruction wreaked by the Goths, rather than the firing of a single building, even if that did result in the death of an emperor.

    Another word that occurs to me as an alternative to 'uncanny' is 'hideous', which seems to me as perhaps conveying the unnatural, inhuman nature of the Gothic onslaught.
    Last edited by Renatus; February 26, 2016 at 10:10 AM.

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    Default Re: The House of Caves

    Renatus, I am in awe of your ability to conjure up these references. I do like the adjective 'lamentable' as well as 'hideous'. Also, the image of fire spreading far and wide acts as a worthy metaphor for the Goths, as you write. However, for me, 'uncanny' still resonates the best - especially in that as far as the novel goes, it use has a hidden subtext in that the 'fate' of Valens is not that of the known versions but an uncanny one indeed . . .

    To my surprise, Book III, The House of Caves, has already received its first review by a Stephen Flanagan:

    This is the conclusion of Francis Hagen's brilliant "Janus Eagle " trilogy and what a conclusion it is. It's hard to describe the book without giving away too much of the story. Enough to say it is darkly beautiful and although anyone who has read Francis's other works will probably be able to see where it is going you will need to follow the story to its glorious conclusion. I really can't recommend this trilogy highly enough.

    I am delighted to say the least!

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