You're welcome to provide some heraldic devices. I still need to finish up on 14th and 15th century units. My issue is creating good looking Visby armour and I am learning how to use mudbox.
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
You're welcome to provide some heraldic devices. I still need to finish up on 14th and 15th century units. My issue is creating good looking Visby armour and I am learning how to use mudbox.
Remember to smile
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Well, it's not like the Swedes gave you much to work with.They look quite hideous if I may say so myself. Here are pictures of replicas from visby museum in case that helps.
1361: Danish soldier left side, Gotland burgher/peasant right.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
More sets of replica. Yes, that's a lamellar on the top.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Reconstruction of a Gotlander based on cranium.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Originally Posted by Finn
Laetus
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Then again, how much of Norway is lowland, 10%?There was no use for ponies in Sweden like in Norway.
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
I would like to have some kind of update this March. Two more units to bring to the field.
Atgeir Bondir
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Atgeir Hirdmen
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Last edited by Slytacular; March 11, 2016 at 02:35 PM.
Remember to smile
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
It's kinda hard to see how the sun is angled at the back of the unit, but from what I can see those weapons look awesome.Good job!
One simple suggestion to differentiate the 3 Scandinavian units even more:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Swedish funereal effigies, high and late period.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
EDIT:
Three unique Swedish weaponry that I recently bumped over. You don't have to side-track too much, but it's something.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Thanks to Livrustkammarens, Skoklosters slotts och Hallwylska museets online database[1].
You probably have seen this before, but I think it's good to post it here.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
~Wille
Last edited by Kjertesvein; March 18, 2016 at 08:37 AM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Laetus
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
You're doing an amazing job manI would like to have some kind of update this March. Two more units to bring to the field.
Atgeir Bondir
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Atgeir Hirdmen
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Remember to smile
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Scandinavian levy laws
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Unique Danish unit:
Noble Danish Swords (Late, from 1450)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Scandinavian ornaments:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Not ornamental, but distinct shapes.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
EDIT:
A online book of Norwegian coat-of-arms hitherto 1400 AD
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Art that can be used for things such as shields:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
~Wille
Last edited by Kjertesvein; November 17, 2016 at 06:45 PM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
A bit of a late reply, but thank you Kjertesvein! I'll work on Norway next for you!
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Tiny suggestion
Change the name Bondir to the more correct medieval danish/swedish form Bøndær or Bønder.
cheers
Laetus
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Its Sweden, so not Bøndær or Bønder but Bönder please.Tiny suggestion
Change the name Bondir to the more correct medieval danish/swedish form Bøndær or Bønder.
cheers
Hazarapatish
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
In contemporary and modern Swedish, but up until the first quarter of the 13 century we spoke the same old east norse as the Danes, and with development of a stronger royal authority and trade with Germany during the later half of the 13th century, the Swedish dialect developed into the Old Swedish language, still not modern Swedish
Remember to smile
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Oh thank you.
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Hva i helvete?
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
This is Olav the Holy, patron saint of Norway (Died in battle 1030) from an artwork made around 1320. As common in medieval art the artist has projected his own time on the depiction so note the weaponry and armor. Curiously except Olav's axe Hel still being a Daneaxe. (Hel is also found in the modern coat of arms)
(Also the artist has decided to give Olav jesus-like proportions despite before he became "the holy" he was known as "Olav the Big" )
Last edited by Påsan; April 13, 2016 at 05:09 PM.
Remember to smile
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
@Påsan
Love that image. That axe though, nice.
Fun facts on axes for those who don't know: The Norwegian online archaeological museum (unimus) holds these numbers when you're looking for weapons: 11 000 axes, 6000 spears and 4000 swords. Granted, this is not limited to the middle ages, but it still says something about the abundance of axes in Norway. The first thing a man would buy was the axe, then a shield and finally a spear. If he didn't, well, he had no rights and would have to pay a fine (landlov). Exceptionally good axes (or sword) were also part of the King's guard's armament when escorting the king (hirdlov). Who doesn't love a good axe every now and then (except, perhaps for the person on the receiving end
@Sly
The Swedish units seems to be a favorite according a recent poll by Pixelated.
If you're already done with the Norwegian Bondir units, then that's perfectly fine. If you're not done and want to make them a little bit different, then please lend me your ear. TL;DR is the fact that peasants still used the round shield in the middle ages. Not sure who told you otherwise.
Longer version:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
~Wille
Last edited by Kjertesvein; April 17, 2016 at 06:05 PM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
I don't remember where I read about two handed axes being a royal weapon, but that image posted by Pasan was part of the inspiration towards the huskarls unit.
When I talked about not liking round shields, I was thinking of the kind of round shields used during the Viking Era. Those round shields would be exchanged for the tear drop shield during the 11th century, that would later become kite shields during the late 12th century. Viking Era round shields would be something very outdated by the 13th century. However, I think we were on a different page about the use of round shields. I believe you must be talking solely about the small round shields that are extravagantly decorated with iron bands that look like something from out of Skyrim?
From reading your earlier posts about the Norwegian laws and regulations of equipment, I get an impression that there would be the peace time guard duty buckler by regulation, and then there was the more serious shields used for escorts for protecting royal behinds. Logistic-wise the buckler is ideal for carrying since the weight is not a burden as you have stated. However, it's not like it is a fanny pack from GAP that doesn't get in the way. I'm sure people would get tired of carrying that thing all day.
People with very little to very knowledgeable about the Medieval time period have said that there are other purposes to carrying a big shield, such as building muscles and familiar use of the shield. I personally think that shields are designed for the role and expected upcoming situation. Military campaigns would sometimes have a designated shield maker as mentioned in a book about Charlemagne's Empire.
Another impression is that those Norwegian small shields were probably the peace time buckler shields as indicated in the regulations.
Remember to smile
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
I would pretty much agree with all your assumptions. For exmaple this classic Viking shield would not be accepted if I were entering the Norwegian medieval army. According to Cederlöf, the medieval round (Skyrim) shields would be 50-60 cm diameter, which is nothing like the Viking shields we have (75-90 cm). Instead, it's in fact fairly similar to the size of heater shields of this period.
From my personal thoughts on Bondir shields, which is me filling the gaps where we lack hard evidence, is that that there may to be an Intermediate shield stage between large 'basic' Viking shields and smaller Skyrim shields. Perhaps 50-75 cm, 3 iron straps, less ornament and no iron rim used primarily by the poorest farmer, as is described in the law. So for example tier 1 archer may own the Intermediate shield mixed in with buckler. Then, Skyrim shields like C954 for the average spear/axe Bondir as well as a few Intermediate shields. Possibly a few continental (triangular) shields if that feels right. Then, as we move into the 14th century, heater shields (such as the Swedish one I posted above) slowly becoming more prominent, jet still mixed with a few Skyrim shields. Then further on in late period, pavise with all kinds of sexy looking manuscripts. More or less, but then again, you're the artist here so it's up to you to fill in the gaps. Go with what ever feels right.
Cederlöf describe the triangular (kite/heater) shield as used by the rich, as opposed to the Skyrim shield for farmers. Personally, I don't see a reason to think there is any strict regulation for a separation. In my opinion, I believe that some more well-off farmers could very well be using a heater shield, although it seems more likely that the Skyrim shields were more prevalent for farmers due to the study of words used in the laws/letter to describe them and archaeological remains.
If I've understood you correct, than I agree, the four bucklers (C31924, C30707, C1568 and C126) may very well be used by the Hirdmen guards in the hirdlaw, or smaller ones. We don't know. I wouldn't limited them to peace times. Both shield and buckler were required (encouraged) for nobles to bring to war. Also, according to King's mirror, warriors would train with both buckler and shield using heavy armour. Exactly how they were used, we don't know. If something is too heavy to carry, then one can always just call on ones personal squire to take care of it I guess. Surviving bucklers are between 35-40 cm diameter, which is larger than what we see in i.33 (continental sword&buckler fencing manual, 1320s). At which point you could possibly argue logistics, but we don't know for certain due to the variety of the thickness' of the wood.
~Wille
Last edited by Kjertesvein; April 18, 2016 at 06:28 AM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Scandinavian Soldiers of the 13th and Early 15th Century
Contemporary images showing knights and other soldiers from Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
Seal of Karl "Döve" Bengtsson, Sweden, early 13th century
Knights in 'The Story of St Mary of Antioch', Ål Church, Norway, mid 13th century
Effigy of Bjorn Finsson, Trondheim Cathedral, Trondheim, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway, 1280
'Massacre of the Innocents', Dädesjö Church ceiling paintings, Småland, Sweden, late 13th century
St Maurice as a Knight on a Reliquary, Lögon Monastery, Denmark, c.1300
Effigy of Nils Jonsson, St Mary's Church, Sigtuna, Uppland, Sweden, 1316
Swedish Knights on wall paintings from the Church at Södra Råda in Sweden, 1323AD
Hardenberg's Codex, Norway, early 14th century
Scenes from the Life of Saint Olaf, Altar, Nidaros Cathedral, Trondheim, Norway, first half of the 14th century
Illuminations from the collection of Icelandic sagas, the Flateyjarbok
Legend of the 12th century Crusade of Erik IX of Sweden to Finland accompanied by the english born Bishop Henry of Uppsala on Henry's brass monument in the church of Nousiainen, south-western Finland, c.1415-20
Danish or Swedish soldiers in a wall painting in Brönnestad Church, Scania, Sweden, c. 1440
Druzhina345
Illustrations of Scandinavian Costume and Soldiers
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Thanks Druzhina! You should take a look at Sven Rosborn's photos again. I'm seeing some pretty cool stuff like:
I'm surprised to see the English style of armour used in Sweden. It's not just Norway that you assume would have it, Kjertesvein.
Last edited by Slytacular; April 30, 2016 at 08:31 AM.
Remember to smile
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Yeah, those frescoes are look awesome.Nice find, 1460s is a pretty good date. I also spotted a Danish Longsword in one of those churches as well, exactly like the one from the Danish museum.
These churches, as well as this one from 1440, were all are located in Skåne. Skåne has only been Swedish for the last ~350 years, but that doesn't mean armour doesn't naturally distribute across borders, who knows. If the armour is intended for a regular foot soldier, then it looks pretty good for it's time. I'm not sure about the open-face bascinet and such, but perhaps it's artistic license or that's an area I'm ignorant about. I wonder what kind of leg defenses are used, because the images are a bit unclear. I must note the kettle hat in the last image looks quite spiffing.
EDIT: http://armourinart.com/search/?year=...=&institution=
~Wille
Last edited by Kjertesvein; July 08, 2016 at 12:03 AM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Senator
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Sweden
Thanks, very interesting.
Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
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