Question : Why are Albanians muslims?

[Xanthippus of Sparta]

After the fall of Albania to the Ottomans, those who refused their rule ventured in a massive exodus to Italy(their descendants are very different from modern Albanian migrants; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3...h%C3%AB_people ), this exodus included nearly the entirety of their nobility.

Thus, there was no upper class left to lead the fight.

Interesting stuff, an entire community I had no idea existed.

[Gorčin]

It was very present, even at the height of the "heresy".

In 1340, the vickary of Bosnia was founded in Mile, in the heart of Bosnia.
Around 1385, apart from the churches, the Catholic orders have 35 monasteries, the most prominent ones in Visoko, Lašva, Kraljeva Sutjeska and Olovo.

Of course, the krstjani did become a relative majority at one point, but a large portion of the country still remained Catholic regardless.

+Marius+..... Please, I think we both can agree that Catholicism in Bosnia was not "firmly established since its formation" as you have stated in one of your previous posts. And I have never even once questioned that Catholicism was not present in Bosnia. Catholicisam, or better to say "Western Christianity" is the first organised religion after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in Bosnia. That is a fact. Only an complete idiot would say that Catholicisam never existed in Bosnia. But Bosnia was not a Catholic state (at least not until its very end). That are two different things. Bosnia never had a state religion. Even the Church of Bosnia was not the state religion of the medieval Bosnian state. That is why Bosnia fell so easy after the death of Tvrtko. There was never a state religion who would act as a unifying force to wthistand the ambitions of neighbouring countries. Bosnia was not a Catholic state like France or Hungary was.

In 1340, the vickary of Bosnia was founded in Mile, in the heart of Bosnia.

And please, I am not a Catholic but I certanly know the difference and importance between a state Bishop and a Franciscan Vickary.

Speaking of which:

The Catholic Church in Bosnia was represented solely by a limited number of Franciscans, who were also limited, at least from the time of Jacob de Marchia's reforims in the 1430s, to a small nubmer of monasteries. And though Catholicism became important to the last two kings and to a few nobles, the Catholic Church, too, never became a major institution in the state. The Catholics also had no territorial organization in Bosnia. The Catholic bishop, the titular Bishop of Bosnia, resided outside the state in Djakovo in Slavonia and played no role in Bosnia, possesing only theoretical authority there. And like the Bosnian clerics (meaning the clergy of the Church of Bosnia), the Franciscans were based in monasteries (which importance you are trying to overstress), though theirs tended to be in, or on the outskirts of, towns. Catholic cleris also played a very limited role in the Bosnian state, withessing charters and serving as diplomats, but little more.

Van Antwerp Fine, John (1994), The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest, University of Michigan Press, pp. 484

How many people do you think declared themselves krstjani because of persecution?
Because they also raided Catholic villages and monasteries just as the Catholic did to them.

Source? And please no Franciscan legends and folktales. And even if they prosecuted Catholics you certanly dont believe that the Krstjani could match the prosecutional and inquistitional machinery of the mightiest orgnaization in the world in that time, which was the Catholic Church in Rome.

Rome only sanctioned the crusade, and it was only 1 crusade...but it was (technically)a crusade.

Yes.... so you dont send Crusades in countries which have "firmly established catholicisam". Crusades are sent were Catholicism is shaky.

Yes, according to Srećko M. Dzaja and Dubravko Lovrenovic there were only 10 krstjan villages with a total of 113 households in the midst of the Ottoman invasion.
The Catholics on the other hand, had about 37 604 households...which is the vast majority of the population.
These numbers could obviously be skewed, but the overall decline of the krstjani is clear.

Yes the Bosnian Church prety much disapeared before the Ottomans came.

What ruthless persecution?

Van Antwerp Fine, John (1994), The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest, University of Michigan Press, pp. 582

As the Ottoman threat increased, Stefan Tomaš sought papal aid. The pope, however, stated he would provide help only if action were taken against the Bosnian Church. So, the king agreed to initiate a forceful policy. He may also have been accommodating to papal wishes in ordrer ro reduce the effect of the Hungarian accusation that the Bosnians were not good Christians and therefore had surrendered Smederevo to the Turks. Thus, now for the first time, a Bosnian ruler adpoted the policy, long demanded by international Catholicisim, of persecution. It is worth emphasizing this, for untill the last four years of the kingdom Bosnia's rulers, most of whom were Catholics, had abstained from presecutions and had remained tolerant..... In 1459 the king gave Bosnian Churchmen most probably meaming the Bosnian Church cleary, the choice of conversion or exile.

They were still present, just not the majority.
The obvious indication is that, when the Ottomans capture Bosnia, they speak to the Catholic clergy, not anyone else.
The ahdnama was declared by the sultan Mehmed II to the kustod fra Anđelo Zvizdović in 1463 where he acknowledged the religious right of Catholics in Bosnia.
The same was not given to the krstjani.

Yep they were almost wiped out. Prosecutions but also the growing influence of Catholicism in Culture eventualy rooted out the indigenous Church of Bosnia. Still we cant infer just because of the pumped large numbers of Catholics in the last 10-20 years that Bosnia was a Catholic state with a "firmly established Catholicism" as you have said. However Bosnia was a Legitimate Catholic state with Catholicism as its state religion for a brief period of 4 years before the Turkish counqest.

From the works of Dr. Andrija Zirdum, but now that I looked it up a bit, he is obviously biased to the bone. gasga
However, there were a lot of Catholic churches and monasteries in Bosnia prior to 1463 nonetheless;

http://i.imgur.com/lHykexN.jpg

Yes I am aware of the bias of Dr. Zirdum. In his original text he actually states that the Turks burnt 464 Catholic buildings wich is ludacris, becasue that would mean that Bosnia had even more then 464 Catholic buidlings in medieval times. But still Dr. Zirdum being bias as he is, has a god point with the his map you posted, and actually proves my point. If we look at the map wich presents the modern day BH, we can easily observe the tight cluster of Catholic buildings in the north western corner of Bosnia. However in the rest of the country churches are rather sparse in density compared with the latter.Why is it so someone may ask? Because that part of Bosnia was never a part of medieval Bosnia. Those parts were medieval Croatian Catholic lands that Bosnia acquired indirectly via Turkish counqests. If Catholicism was firmly present, Bosnia would be littered with Catholic churches (just like the northwestern corner) especially in it hearthland what is known as Vrhbosnia.

..."altough I must point out that this notion is disgarded in wider acamedic circles. However the Krstjani often alinged themself with the Turks and sought their protection in the late 15th century."....
How so?
As far as I know, they betrayed the Ottomans at Jajce, Dvornik and other places when the Hungarian army invaded Bosnia in 1463 and retook half of it.

Sima Ćirković Istorija Srednjovjekovne bosanske države pp. 320

Looks like everything started when the King ordered that the heretics (members of the Church of Bosnia) needed to convert or abandon the country leaving their entire property. Many of them forcefully accepted Catholicism but not sincerely, so that these "unsincere catholics" were often accused that they assisted the Turks in their counqest of Bosnia. Many of them were striped of their posessions by King Tomaš (Bosnian King Tomaš), so that one early Turkish source states that there is some land that the Damned King (Damned because he converted to Catholicism) took from the Krstjani (Bosnian Curch members) and gave away to the peasentry.

He does not mention heretics though, merely his people and peasants.
Those could be Catholics as well as krstjani.

Indeed they could. Catholics, Krstjani and Orthodox alike favoured the Turks because they lowered their taxes. The Ottoman empire was afluent in that times, unlike the fleedgling and feeble Bosnian state wich in the last days of the Kingdom was heavliy dependent on high taxataion and Catholic military aid wich never came.

The paradox in Bosnian history is that even today Bosnia doesn't have a state religion. Catholics and Orthodox are still here and the Krstjani are replaced with Bosnian muslims. What aggravates the whole situation is the 21st century Croatian, Serb and Bosniak nationalism that comes on top of that. I think that we will here again from Bosnia in this century, and unfortunately I think that it wont be any good news.

[Gorčin]

Regarding the conversion of Krstjani to Islam (which is often disregarded in academic circles) I would point out to a strange phenomena in the Bosnian muslim populations. Namely, Bosniaks have something that is on Bosnian called "Dovište" and it represents holy places of pilgrimage. The name is derived from the oriental word Dova wich means pray. So dovište is a place for praying. The places are often shrowded in local legends and its said that they date from the time of early conversions to Islam. People often attend in large numbers and pray on the open. Sometimes they pray for water and chant the Kišna Dova or Rain Pray. Some say that the custom goes back to pre Ottoman times. Here are some pictures.


















I will take the liberty and post some videos of Sarajevo during Eid al-Fitr (breaking of the fast) (this thread is in the end about muslims in Bosnia and Albania).

For everyone, especially for people from Central and Western Europe who want to catch at least some sentiment of an Ottoman European city and do not have the time or money to go to Turkey, I highly recommend a visit to Sarajevo. Food and lodging are dirt cheap, the cousine is tasty and rich, people are very friendly and Bosnian women are very beautiful.

[Gorčin]

Here is another video of Sarajevo during the first day of Ramazan Bayram.