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Thread: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

  1. #181
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    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    What you expect me to say? I understand the Danish premise: why change something that is working? Their government has confidence the police force is enough to ensure their population security.
    Again though, doesn't she have the right to defend herself against a serious violent crime?

  2. #182

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Police visit the scene of crimes after they have been committed. How many rapes are stopped in-progress by law enforcement???

    Rapes are extremely violent for the motivation is not sexual but humiliation and degradation. A rape victim could be scarred beyond recognition, tortured, or murdered.

    Only a minuscule number of victims report their crimes due to this.

    And people are more concerned about the effects of pepper spray. Well I suggest doing some research and talking to rape-survivors. Maybe share your outrageous ideas with women to see their incredulity.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; February 10, 2016 at 09:54 PM.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoise Groudon View Post
    Again though, doesn't she have the right to defend herself against a serious violent crime?
    Yes she does, and the law has plenty of room for self-defence. She is not being charged for using the spray, but for owning and carrying it. If she had found it on the ground and picked it up during the struggle, there would not have been a case against her at all. I have not seen a news update on this since it happened, but similar cases have resulted in fines of 3000 DKK (about 450$), and I am sure that people are lining up to pay it on her behalf.

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Police visit the scene of crimes after they have been committed. How many rapes are stopped in-progress by law enforcement???

    Rapes are extremely violent for the motivation is not sexual but humiliation and degradation. A rape victim could be scarred beyond recognition, tortured, or murdered.

    Only a minuscule number of victims report their crimes due to this.

    And people are more concerned about the effects of pepper spray. Well I suggest doing some research and talking to rape-survivors. Maybe share your outrageous ideas with women to see their incredulity.
    I totally agree with most of what you are saying here, and so does most people in Denmark, but I must assure you that absolutely nobody but the rapist himself are concerned about the effect of pepper spray on a rapists face (other than could it burn a little more perhaps). What concerns people supporting the ban is that if pepper spray is legalized, it will be available not only to potential rape victims, but also to potential rapists, robbers, troublemakers and people who might be involved in a fight, a push-and-shove situation, road-rage, neighbour dispute ect.
    Assault-style rapes, like case being discussed here, are (still) the rarest kind of rape. It is mostly people that the victim knows and sometimes trusts that commit the majority of rapes, and cases where the victim was drunk, drugged or otherwise incapacitated are also more prevalent.
    Regardless of the modus, all you say about how harmful rape is fully applies. Legalizing pepper spray will not matter much in reducing the total number of rapes.

  4. #184

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    I get that.

    I also know three women who were raped. Only one stepped forward. One had to leave her university out of shame.No one believed her. Because she bravely insisted, eventually other victims from the same perp came forward. Though he had countless character witnesses, it was proven he had committed several rapes.

    You can bet all of his victims wish they had a weapon.

    This topic is so stupid that I'm flabbergasted at the concern over pepper spray. Then only criminals will have weapons for they don't follow the law.
    Last edited by Tiberios; February 11, 2016 at 10:32 AM. Reason: off topic and graphic content removed

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Rubicon, please. And for the love of Bacon.
    You have produced magnificent posts (and good, and mediocre) in the past. Why this awful mess? I assume it is not yet Friday night in your part of the World.
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    I get that.
    Obviously, you don't. I made posts #65, #80, #106, #183. Please tell me where in those posts I have expressed the slightest clemency towards rapists or the slightest sympathy towards a rapist being repulsed by pepper spray.

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    I also know three women who were raped. Only one stepped forward. One had to leave her university out of shame.No one believed her. Because she bravely insisted, eventually other victims from the same perp came forward. Though he had countless character witnesses, it was proven he had committed several rapes.

    You can bet all of his victims wish they had a weapon.
    The case being discussed in the OP is a case of assault-rape where it made sense for the victim to defend herself using a pepper spray. She must have been immediately aware that she was being assaulted, and had the can where she could easily reach for it.
    These cases are rare, also compared to the majority of rape cases. I don't know the details regarding the 3 girls you mention, but I assume that this is more of a "date-rape" situation. In that case, I find it unlikely that the girls were able to reach for it in time when they found out he went one step too far, or even willing to use it in the situation against that popular guy, if they had a weapon of any sort.
    Now please provide the details of the situation if you still find your example relevant to what is being discussed.
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    This topic is so stupid that I'm flabbergasted at the concern over pepper spray. Then only criminals will have weapons for they don't follow the law.
    There is nothing to be flabbergasted about. Criminals are indeed using pepper spray for assault and robbery here. As I stated earlier, if pepper sprays are legalized, the police will not be able to confiscate those when they do spot checks (which they do quite often).
    Furthermore, the population is not clearly divided into good and bad people. People who arm themselves for protection against assault may end up using the weapon in an escalation of a different conflict. Something they had not planned to do, but rage took over. I am pretty sure, no-one wakes up one morning and decides to become a criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logios View Post
    I totally agree with most of what you are saying here, and so does most people in Denmark, but I must assure you that absolutely nobody but the rapist himself are concerned about the effect of pepper spray on a rapists face (other than could it burn a little more perhaps). What concerns people supporting the ban is that if pepper spray is legalized, it will be available not only to potential rape victims, but also to potential rapists, robbers, troublemakers and people who might be involved in a fight, a push-and-shove situation, road-rage, neighbour dispute ect.
    Assault-style rapes, like case being discussed here, are (still) the rarest kind of rape. It is mostly people that the victim knows and sometimes trusts that commit the majority of rapes, and cases where the victim was drunk, drugged or otherwise incapacitated are also more prevalent.
    Regardless of the modus, all you say about how harmful rape is fully applies. Legalizing pepper spray will not matter much in reducing the total number of rapes.
    This is what I claimed in the above post:
    1. Legalizing pepper sprays are ineffective for giving a significant reduction in the total number of rapes.
    2. Legalizing pepper sprays might cause all kinds of other use for these than defence against rape.
    As I have stated earlier, I am not completely against a legalization of pepper spray, and anyone should feel free to challenge my claims.
    Last edited by Tiberios; February 11, 2016 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Continuity

  6. #186

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Logios View Post
    Yes she does, and the law has plenty of room for self-defence. She is not being charged for using the spray, but for owning and carrying it. If she had found it on the ground and picked it up during the struggle, there would not have been a case against her at all. I have not seen a news update on this since it happened, but similar cases have resulted in fines of 3000 DKK (about 450$), and I am sure that people are lining up to pay it on her behalf.


    I totally agree with most of what you are saying here, and so does most people in Denmark, but I must assure you that absolutely nobody but the rapist himself are concerned about the effect of pepper spray on a rapists face (other than could it burn a little more perhaps). What concerns people supporting the ban is that if pepper spray is legalized, it will be available not only to potential rape victims, but also to potential rapists, robbers, troublemakers and people who might be involved in a fight, a push-and-shove situation, road-rage, neighbour dispute ect.
    Assault-style rapes, like case being discussed here, are (still) the rarest kind of rape. It is mostly people that the victim knows and sometimes trusts that commit the majority of rapes, and cases where the victim was drunk, drugged or otherwise incapacitated are also more prevalent.
    Regardless of the modus, all you say about how harmful rape is fully applies. Legalizing pepper spray will not matter much in reducing the total number of rapes.
    And there should be laws against using pepper spray as assault weapon. Also it could be used for self-defense in case of a robbery/assault as well. It is criminally irrational to take away victim's chance to defend her/himself, just due to assumption that it may be used aggressively.

  7. #187

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Logios View Post
    Yes she does, and the law has plenty of room for self-defence. She is not being charged for using the spray, but for owning and carrying it. If she had found it on the ground and picked it up during the struggle, there would not have been a case against her at all. I have not seen a news update on this since it happened, but similar cases have resulted in fines of 3000 DKK (about 450$), and I am sure that people are lining up to pay it on her behalf.
    The fine is actually unimportant. Its the availability. The fine could be 1 DKK, but the fact that you would have to purchase illegally will greatly limit the average, law abiding citizen from gaining access. This girl had to purposefully break the law and was lucky she did.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  8. #188
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    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Logios View Post
    Rubicon, please. And for the love of Bacon.
    You have produced magnificent posts (and good, and mediocre) in the past. Why this awful mess? I assume it is not yet Friday night in your part of the World.

    Obviously, you don't. I made posts #65, #80, #106, #183. Please tell me where in those posts I have expressed the slightest clemency towards rapists or the slightest sympathy towards a rapist being repulsed by pepper spray.


    The case being discussed in the OP is a case of assault-rape where it made sense for the victim to defend herself using a pepper spray. She must have been immediately aware that she was being assaulted, and had the can where she could easily reach for it.
    These cases are rare, also compared to the majority of rape cases. I don't know the details regarding the 3 girls you mention, but I assume that this is more of a "date-rape" situation. In that case, I find it unlikely that the girls were able to reach for it in time when they found out he went one step too far, or even willing to use it in the situation against that popular guy, if they had a weapon of any sort.
    Now please provide the details of the situation if you still find your example relevant to what is being discussed.

    There is nothing to be flabbergasted about. Criminals are indeed using pepper spray for assault and robbery here. As I stated earlier, if pepper sprays are legalized, the police will not be able to confiscate those when they do spot checks (which they do quite often).
    Furthermore, the population is not clearly divided into good and bad people. People who arm themselves for protection against assault may end up using the weapon in an escalation of a different conflict. Something they had not planned to do, but rage took over. I am pretty sure, no-one wakes up one morning and decides to become a criminal.


    This is what I claimed in the above post:
    1. Legalizing pepper sprays are ineffective for giving a significant reduction in the total number of rapes.
    2. Legalizing pepper sprays might cause all kinds of other use for these than defence against rape.
    As I have stated earlier, I am not completely against a legalization of pepper spray, and anyone should feel free to challenge my claims.



    So let me try to figure out what you're saying in a long story short type of way. You believe that she has a right to defend herself like I believe. She necessary wasn't wrong in using the pepper spray but you don't like the idea of everyone having pepper spray. You don't believe it will cut down the total number of rapes and might be used criminally.

    Good points. Although I like to ask you one question though. How does one defend themselves then? Fists? But you might hurt the attacker, and I'm not trying to joke when I say that (well, perhaps a tad). Let the attacker attack you and call the police? Alright, but you're already battered by this point. Stay out of trouble? Okay, I'll agree to a point on that, but, sometimes trouble will find you. Plus, if you think like that, could that not be taken as one trying to blame the victim?


    People don't like the idea of guns. So lets discuss non-lethal ways then. I'm fine with non-lethal ways. But then you see this argument of non-lethal ways being used against the victims. But that isn't a valid reason not to legalize it. Have you not ever heard of a case of a professional trained police officer or correctional officer having their weapons turned on them? I had heard of a case in my area years ago, 4, yes, 4 correctional officers in a prison was tased by their own tasers by a inmate who was able to wrestle it away from them. How exactly I am not sure but he did and escaped and was later caught. Should we disarm the professionals as well? After all, they may become injured as well.

  9. #189

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    What you expect me to say? I understand the Danish premise: why change something that is working? Their government has confidence the police force is enough to ensure their population security.
    First, only an absolute moron believes that the police "stop" crimes. The police do not "protect" the public against crimes. They enforce the law and their role is 99.99% reactionary---AFTER a crime has been committed. That's not said to denigrate police. I am former military, but in my office 90% of my coworkers are former police. This "subject" has been my career for the past twenty years.

    The only person anyone can rely on to stop a crime in progress is the victim or direct witnesses. Period.

    In my strong opinion, any country that operates with the belief that disarming potential victims is logical because the "police will protect you" should also assume full liability when the police don't. After the flood of victim lawsuits I am sure that ignorance would change!

    Self defense is the most basic right of not just humanity, but all life. To deny people that basic right is true criminality and against the most basic law of nature.
    Last edited by Ren the Unclean; February 11, 2016 at 09:49 PM.

  10. #190

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    You don't care. If pepper spray was legal, you would still be making this post, outraged she can't have a gun. You want to look through a scanner darkly at an imagined European hellscape that justifies your own Mad Max regard to weaponry.
    You didn't even address his point. So the girl should just accept being raped? That's your true belief? You believe that allowing a vulnerable citizenry the ability and right to self defense is equal to a "Hellscape"?

    Tell me, would you still hold that belief after your wife or daughter is raped?

    Ironically, I have a ton of European friends (Dutch, Belgian, etc.) who are sick of this nonsense. In fact we talked about it while they were visiting me on the range in Florida...I know, they must be Hellscapers.

  11. #191

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren the Unclean View Post
    First, only an absolute moron believes that the police "stop" crimes. The police do not "protect" the public against crimes. They enforce the law and their role is 99.99% reactionary---AFTER a crime has been committed. That's not said to denigrate police. I am former military, but in my office 90% of my coworkers are former police. This "subject" has been my career for the past twenty years.

    The only person anyone can rely on to stop a crime in progress is the victim or direct witnesses. Period.

    In my strong opinion, any country that operates with the belief that disarming potential victims is logical because the "police will protect you" should also assume full liability when the police don't. After the flood of victim lawsuits I am sure that ignorance would change!

    Self defense is the most basic right of not just humanity, but all life. To deny people that basic right is true criminality.
    Where did I say the police force stop any crime? They ensure the security, different meaning.

    Politics shouldn't be done on the individual level. Does pepper spray mitigate criminal occurrence? Does it mitigate violence severity? Or are you working on assumptions only?

    Denmark is doing fine with their status quo, while many countries that allow pepper spray would be considered lawless by Danish standards.


  12. #192

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Policing is at least half deterrence.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  13. #193

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Denmark is doing fine with their status quo, while many countries that allow pepper spray would be considered lawless by Danish standards.
    France
    Germany
    Switzerland

    Obviously lawless hell holes
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  14. #194
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    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren the Unclean View Post
    First, only an absolute moron believes that the police "stop" crimes. The police do not "protect" the public against crimes. They enforce the law and their role is 99.99% reactionary---AFTER a crime has been committed. That's not said to denigrate police. I am former military, but in my office 90% of my coworkers are former police. This "subject" has been my career for the past twenty years.

    The only person anyone can rely on to stop a crime in progress is the victim or direct witnesses. Period.

    In my strong opinion, any country that operates with the belief that disarming potential victims is logical because the "police will protect you" should also assume full liability when the police don't. After the flood of victim lawsuits I am sure that ignorance would change!

    Self defense is the most basic right of not just humanity, but all life. To deny people that basic right is true criminality and against the most basic law of nature.
    This is very true. Police act in a very reactive way.

    Also, if you read about the Kansas City preventive patrol experiment back in the early 1970's, there was no difference in crime rates when they increased or decreased patrols. So like Ren said, the first line of defense has to be with the victim and/or the direct witness.

  15. #195

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    ...

    What do you think of this? Is Denmark insane for banning pepper spray? Should they have shown mercy and declined to prosecute this one time because this woman was almost raped?

    ...
    It's not really the call of the police or prosecution to decide that. It might be the call of a judge or jury to decide to bend the law because of circumstances. Police/prosecution should only care what the law says is legal and illegal and act accordingly.

    Whether pepper spray should be banned or not is a decision of the legislative.

    Oh, wait. Source says she was charged with possession of pepper spray and will just be fined for it... aka it is not prosecuted at all but considered a misdemeanour not a crime. What's the story again?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    France
    Germany
    Switzerland

    Obviously lawless hell holes

    Yeah, in germany the usage of pepper spray against humans is considered aggravated assault. Circumstances like self defense can void any criminal charges but otherwise it is illegal to use it for anything but defense against animal attacks which is the purpose under which pepper spray is sold.
    Last edited by Mangalore; February 12, 2016 at 09:39 AM.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
    Mangalore Design

  16. #196

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    Yeah, in germany the usage of pepper spray against humans is considered aggravated assault. Circumstances like self defense can void any criminal charges but otherwise it is illegal to use it for anything but defense against animal attacks which is the purpose under which pepper spray is sold.
    I'm pretty sure if I went out and bought a can of pepper spray, and sprayed a random person its aggravated assault in the US too. I am licensed to carry a gun and use it in self defense, but if I use it and its deemed it wasn't self defense, even if I thought it was, its going to be assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, murder, or manslaughter.

    You are still responsible for your actions when you are armed in fact you are MORE so in the US. Lets say you insult me, call my wife a whore or something. Lets say I get in your face and call you something in return. You take a swing at me, I punch back, you pull a knife, I shot you in the head. There is a good chance I am going to jail even though you started it and attacked me first with a deadly weapon. The reason is I did nothing to "deescalate" the problem, I could have tried to walk away, I could have tried to say something to placate you, but instead I made the fight "worse" even though you started the whole thing. Now lets say I'm not armed, the same thing happens, only when you draw the knife, I pick up something heavy and smash your skull in killing you. Now its self defense.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  17. #197

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I'm pretty sure if I went out and bought a can of pepper spray, and sprayed a random person its aggravated assault in the US too. I am licensed to carry a gun and use it in self defense, but if I use it and its deemed it wasn't self defense, even if I thought it was, its going to be assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, murder, or manslaughter.

    ....
    The illegality is not tied to any circumstances. The issue is really that things can be illegal by intent of investigation of the circumstances aka it is _always_ illegal to use pepper spray against people so you have to prove extraordinary circumstances that this illegality is less grave than the circumstances you used it in.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
    Mangalore Design

  18. #198

    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    The illegality is not tied to any circumstances. The issue is really that things can be illegal by intent of investigation of the circumstances aka it is _always_ illegal to use pepper spray against people so you have to prove extraordinary circumstances that this illegality is less grave than the circumstances you used it in.
    I'm not sure if we are having a debate because I think we agree with each other really. In Germany you buy it for "animals protection", but you can use it for self defense if its deemed acceptable. Outside of people working where they might run into aggressive family dogs, I don't think there is much cause for it for animal control in Germany.

    In the US I can buy it for personal protection from animals and people, but I still have to prove I needed to use it if I'm attacked by a person.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  19. #199
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    Default Re: Danish teenager who fought off rapist will be prosecuted for using pepper spray

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoise Groudon View Post
    So let me try to figure out what you're saying in a long story short type of way. You believe that she has a right to defend herself like I believe. She necessary wasn't wrong in using the pepper spray but you don't like the idea of everyone having pepper spray. You don't believe it will cut down the total number of rapes and might be used criminally.

    Good points. Although I like to ask you one question though. How does one defend themselves then? Fists? But you might hurt the attacker, and I'm not trying to joke when I say that (well, perhaps a tad). Let the attacker attack you and call the police? Alright, but you're already battered by this point. Stay out of trouble? Okay, I'll agree to a point on that, but, sometimes trouble will find you. Plus, if you think like that, could that not be taken as one trying to blame the victim?
    Good points too, if I had the perfect answer to that, the thread would probably not have went on for so long. Except of course that whatever you do in self-defence or as an emergency act to protect others (that is not grossly disprorportional to the situations, that is), is fair game. You should not take pity on a wannabe rapist who have received a knee to the groin and an elbow to the teeth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoise Groudon View Post
    People don't like the idea of guns. So lets discuss non-lethal ways then. I'm fine with non-lethal ways. But then you see this argument of non-lethal ways being used against the victims. But that isn't a valid reason not to legalize it. Have you not ever heard of a case of a professional trained police officer or correctional officer having their weapons turned on them? I had heard of a case in my area years ago, 4, yes, 4 correctional officers in a prison was tased by their own tasers by a inmate who was able to wrestle it away from them. How exactly I am not sure but he did and escaped and was later caught. Should we disarm the professionals as well? After all, they may become injured as well.
    This example however is a little far fetched, I believe. It would be extremely rare for that to happen, and having defence devices distributed to the general population would not have helped those 4 officers. Were you going somewhere else with this? Perhaps you could explain it in another way.

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