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Thread: Venetians: Real Bastards

  1. #1

    Default Venetians: Real Bastards

    On vh/vh...(with rebels given 999,999 gold, brigands set to 15 (gives more heretics) and 12-20 units in each city, otherwise vanilla). I know this will sound kind of AARish, but its not. I'm seriously surprised.

    It would seem that CA got at least one thing right with Campaign Map AI. The Venetians are incredibly bastardly when you have something they want.

    Recently, in a Sicily game, I went and took Durazzo. I guess that Venice must have not appreciated having the adriatic closed off because a turn later, they began blockading my ports. Well. This forced me to up the ante by attacking with my fleet to drive them off.

    A couple interesting things happened then. I was given a mission to blockade Crete, while at the same time they marched on Durazzo. However, I kept not being able to get to Crete because of Venetian fleets in the way, and the Venetian stack rebelled against itself and decided to pillage my countryside instead!

    Then they began to try and flood my city of Naples with spies and drive up unrest. However, I responded to this by training a couple spies of my own and in a short while, several Venetian spies were hung. The amusing thing about this is that my King (an unremarkable fellow) actually got a cool trait from it 'Counter Spy'.

    Amusingly, I allied the Holy Roman Empire, and the turn later, Venice allied the Byzantium Empire.

    Now three things happened at once:

    1) Suddenly, the Pope called a Crusade, which both myself and the Venetians joined (and noone else). So for the next 4-5 turns, our Crusading armies would be eyeing each other on the way to the Holy Land. Eventually, my commander decided to ditch his infantry and recruit some Armenian/Turkopole mercenaries to /zoom/ to Antioch, picking up Armenian Archers and Crusader Spearmen once there, so the Venetians were left about a turn behind.

    2) Venice began to blockade all my ports after seriously mutilating my fleet. A fleet I couldn't get to a harbor to retrain. However, I couldn't attack the fleets without risking excommunication! I was warned specifically by the Pope.

    3) To combat this, I began training and sending a diplomat to bribe the Pope. Yet almost teeth-grindingly frustratingly, the Venetians bribed three diplomats in a row before they ever got an audience with him!

    Eventually, the Papal ban wore off and I managed to get a severely depleted fleet back into harbor. In the meanwhile, my crusading army had managed to battle its way down the coast to Jerusalem. The Venetians could only watch while I besieged the ramparts. Well. The Papal Ban ended the turn that I took Jerusalem, which left me with a bloodsoaked crusading force staring out at Venice's 20 stack, almost identical horde. Except that while I had Armenians and Turkopoles, the Venetians had Slav Levies and Balkan Archers! Which is why they took longer to get there, tho we left at the same time. So we had a great fight, two full stacks vs each other. We each had a few religious fanatics too , and crusader spearmen. About the only way we differed, and what won it for me, was that I had more knights. I actually managed to line up and send home six units of eighty knights (bodyguard, mailed, crusader) into his battle line and inflicted horrific damage. Anyhow. Great battle, but ended in capturing both his family members. Which were promptly executed.

    I guess the Venetians didn't like having the Doge's sons executed, because suddenly I had three assassins (that I could see with my spies) repeatedly attempting to knife my King. He racked up like a half dozen hilarious traits that sent his personal security THROUGH THE ROOF. He then began to build his own assassins who managed to eliminate the venetian assassins with one or two losses. Several assassins and a spy began to work up the peninsula, assassinating Venetian diplomats, merchants, clerics, etc. Eventually, I got a look at his Doge...

    And his Doge was almost the mirror image of mine. Both were Merciless with dread and an adultress. And it was sort've like looking through the mirror. I realized my Sicilians were not neccessarily the good guys here. No more than the Venetians were. The only difference really was that he had a spymaster and I had a master of assassins advisor. Talk about a rivalry! He had a thieves guild and I had an assassins guild. Sort've like ninja vs geisha, eh?

    In any case. I was about done for the night when I decided to get an expedition together to go for Sardinia. The expenses of maintaining the Holy Lands was actually a drain on my coffers and I needed another source of income.

    I left two peasant archers garrisoning my Durazzo castle and sailed off. Only to have an idiot Venetian diplomat (probably one of mine at that!) walk in and bribe the castle away from me!

    So I had to sail alllll the way back and begin besieging it, and that's when I decided to call it quits for the night.

    This Venetian AI was absolutely murderous, bastardly and just downright mean. I've never seen it before. Has anyone else?

    EDIT: Oh, and as an unrelated aside, I was surprised to see my ally, the HRE, actually vote for my pope in an election. I was so sure I'd lose, /I/ voted for someone else. If I'd voted for myself, I would've won! =(

  2. #2
    Syntax Error's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    Wow, it seems like Medieval II's AI at its best!

    I just had an awesome multi-stack engagement in a field outside of Edinburgh, needless to say, I'd say about 7,000 men perished that day.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    In my experiances the Venetians are indeed quite bastardly and treacherous, and for the most part a gnat I am unable to swat because of numerous other factions joining with them.

    You should think of you two as Stalin and Hitler and get in bed with each other to conquer to world . It's a shame such equals can't be friends.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    Venetians are giant pushovers for me, every game i play whether im sicily or byzantine or some other maritime power in the area, i simply setup (a rather costly) half a stack naval fleet in the middle of the choke point in the adriatic i think at the southern end of italy* Anyways doing that makes sure i have no random/marauding HRE/Venetian fleets, once this happens, they kinda seem to limp around not doing much.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    The Venetians on VH are able to maintain massive fleets. I've been in the red for a long time, unable to fund my big wall improvements (8K plus each!) because they keep slaughtering my fleets.

    And the Holy Land is an absolute money-pit.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    as the hre i allied with poland, venice, france, and hungary (through marriage to an ugly woman ) they still had children btw. I was planning to attack denmark soon and milan is usually the strongest italian faction so i was hoping to force a brawl with all of us there as well. However venice decided to do something else and wam balognia is attacked. But no worries, I not only was able to defend the city properly because of my planning durring turn one, but i sacked venice and grinded up most of her children in a slaughter fest all the way through to greece.

    A heroic victory in greece sealed venice's fate. My emperor henry the merciless executed the last of their members and voila, i now am in control of most of the adriatic. Now to deal with those pesky normans and i will only have the melanese and the pope...who i believe will soon recieve an unexpected visit from Keiser Henry and his dreaded greek army if all goes my way.


    it isnt too bad with the hre. I havent had a visit form an inquisador since the start of the game. The secret is.....BUILD CHURCHES A LOT. If they still come...well, there is always the glitch kill. :hmmm:



    Damocles: go the land route. Get 2 stacks of troops and march your way down to the east and sack and sell all the buildings yourself. I did that to egypt and now their greatest cities (Alexandria) wealth is in my account. They have farms and walls left. WA HAHAHA thats waht they get for forcing me top leave the holyland at a huge lose. They repaid it dearly eh?
    Last edited by Lavastein; November 27, 2006 at 11:21 PM.
    Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws, and asks no omen but his country's cause

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    Wow...Damocles, that is the best TW adventure I've ever heard of. Too bad you couldn't have illustrated it all with ample numbers of screenshots. Get Fraps or something like that and have at least 5 or 6 screens for your next story like that.

  8. #8
    Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    Y'know, that really was awesome. I too wish it was chronicled in more of an AAR format with images and storytelling and such. I understand the thought to write up the interesting hapenings was after the fact, but still, would have been awesome. Kind of fired me up to go play now. Damnit I hate reading awesome reports about the game. I can never resist starting up immediately...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    Too bad I can never recreate any such glorious campaigns due to the limits of my playing skill. I had some pretty cool RTW campaigns here and there, like my campaign to spread the plague, and my campaign where I essentially created a Roman civil war before it's time, and my Barbarian Island raiders campaign. I just need the patch and probably the Regnum Dei mod before I can really sit down and be immersed into a really awesome campaign. Because it sounds like the AI will make that possible this time around.
    Life is an STD with a 100 percent fatality rate.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    The Sicillians have spent nearly half a century tryig to retake Cordoba from me.

    Thats dedication
    Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage

  11. #11

    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    The rest of the campaign was somewhat brutal.

    Protecting an island empire from Corsica-Sardinia-Tunisia to Antioch-Acre-Jerusalem was rough in that my fleets kept getting absolutely decimated. No matter how many I churned out, the Venetians just used them for target practice. And later, the Byzantines joined in. So I'd have Venice blockaded Naples, Sicily, etc, and then I had the Greeks blockading the Levant and Durazzo. on vh, the AI can really afford massive fleets. I couldn't. Compounding this, on VH, autoresolve is VERY unkind in fleet battles. If it is even, you will get slaughtered.

    So essentially, every corner of my Empire was forced to become self-dependent. If a heir wasn't born in Durazzo or Jerusalem...Chances are they weren't going to get there. It was however amusing since I had one main family in the Levant and one in the West. All my 'Kingdom of Jerusalem' family members were chivalrous with packs of templars and hospitalers swarming about them, and the West were all evil, murderous adulterers. I only wish they had used Norman names and not the rediculous Italian names. Norman names were like Serlo, Roger, Robert, William, Michael, Bohemund, etc. Basically English. Not Giovanni Colonna.

    Furthermore, funds were so tight, that I actually joined a crusade just to stop paying the fees for some units. And that in itself, took like 9 turns and I almost lost the whole army, owing to the venetians once again.

    Even if I did defeat a Venetian fleet, it almost always got away, and they would always come back and devastate even a 10 ship sicilian fleet. Their experience levels were just astronomical.

    Coupled that with the Byzantines flooding my citadels with spies before assaulting, and it was just rough.

    Defending the Holy Lands was a ball and chain around my neck. All my crack troops and best leaders were there, and for what? Basically keeping the cities from rebelling. Only Acre was okay, and only because it was a castle. I wish I could've made Antioch and Jerusalem a castle. They were already dirt poor.

    I began to pray for the Mongols, Turks, Egyptians or SOMEONE to wipe me out down there. I couldn't quite muster the willpower to mimic the French in Algeria and just give it all up for lost, despite it being a huge net drain.

    It's now around 1250, and the Sicilian Empire is basically just a collection of decentralized, blockaded fiefdoms with never more than 5k in the treasurey.

    Each War Galley costs about 700 gold. And it never lasts. The Venetians' fleets are just INSANE with AI upkeep cheats. Theres like a 10-15 ship stack of gold chevron Venetians with a 6 star leader sailing back and forth.

    The cost of spies, assassins, priests, diplomats, etc is also staggering. But I need them to even compete with the number of orthodox bishops, imams and the dozens of spies and assassins sent at me too. It doesn't help that each corner of the Empire needs its own complement, so it's like paying for something twice or thrice.

    And of course, my relations with everyone is always deteriorating steadily.

    So it was a good game. But I think that's as far as I'm going to take it. If and when I lose the Levant, I could probably use all the freed upgrade money to put together a new army in Naples and march on Venice directly, but I'll miss all those Gold/Silver chevrons and I'll /never/ get them back home, unless they do one of those Greek marches. (What was it called? I think Herodotus wrote about it, marching through Anatolia).

    Or perhaps I'll revisit it. I'm just damn tired of looking at blockaded ports right now. I need a country like Poland or Hungary.

    So I'll chalk this up to a draw for the AI. Which really does put up a better fight if you give them 20ish turns to develop.

    EDIT: And just as a reminder, my strat_desc is heavily edited to put at least 12-20 experienced troops in each rebel held province, and 999,999 in the rebel treasurey. So even taking Sardinia or Corsica is an epic drain on the resources. You basically have to siege them 8 turns with a full stack, then auto-resolve.
    Last edited by Damocles; November 28, 2006 at 05:29 AM.

  12. #12
    vikrant's Avatar The Messiah of innocence
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    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    moved to aar
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  13. #13
    Metellus's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Venetians: Real Bastards

    It makes an excellent read, though. I'm playing the English H/H and in addition to England and parts of France, I have outposts at Sardinia and Aleppo. Reinforcing them is going to be lots of fun, although I don't think AI fleets will be murderous on Hard.

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