Hoplites causing mosh pit constantly.

[rebypox]

I noticed in battles that (unless in guard mode) hoplites will mosh into impossibly tight crowds. I use guard mode to prevent this, but it makes my men lose even if they're superior. If I take them out of guard mode the mosh and it looks very silly and impossible.

In the stats there's an additional number. I don't know what it does but every hoplite unit has it in Hcs.

The soldier column for hoplites look like this:

soldier hoplites, 60, 0, 1.3, 0.1

Marines don't mosh in melee and their soldier column looks like this:

soldier epibatai, 50, 0, 1.3

I searched everywhere for answers, what is that 4th number? What is that 0.1?
None of my other mods have it. Is that number replacing unit collision mass?
Is that the cause?

How can I stop my hoplites from moshing?

[CapnDan]

Read this, it should have all the info you're looking for.

http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/...it/index.shtml

[z3n]

If I remember right it is from the spear attribute only light_spear doesn't have that problem or it is very minute.

[Pelopidas]

So how do we fix this ?

[Athenogoras]

As suggested by the first post. Remove the 0.1 and they behave like the other troops. It was probably put there to portrait the hoplite dense fighting. Usually it makes the unit more effective not less.

[Onesimos]

I managed to correct this by replacing
soldier hoplites, 60, 0, 1.3, 0.1
by
soldier hoplites, 60, 0, 1.3, 0.5

[Dansk viking]

I'm so happy I found this thread. I really wanted to like this mod, with its great setting, awesome map, etc. but the morphing together of the hoplites is just terrible (reminding me of the horrible lack of mass in Rome 2).

I removed all of those "0.1" fourth numbers, then I replaced all instances of "spear" in stat_pri_attr and stat_sec_attr with "light_spear" (and added "spear_bonus_4" to most of them as well, for some extra power now that they were in effect nerfed). Now the hoplites behave sensibly, comparable to how they fight in EB and RS.

Of course, there's no knowing what other balancing issues are around (and might be caused by this change). A pity really, because this mod seems absolutely great otherwise.

EDIT:

Having looked into it some more, it seems this was at first caused by the use of "spear" rather than "light_spear" in version 0.99 - but then the Modpack (v4.1) completely changed the balance of the unit stats, increasing morale and armour significantly, presumably in order to "Fix Hoplite problems, for longer and better battles", but instead it did the opposite by introducing the lowered collision mass. Now, simply doing what I did above resulted in better mass etc. but battles were way too slow as a result of the increased morale and armour (even slower than in EB!).

I found that the best result was achieved by replacing the Modpack 4.1 EDU with the one included in SigniferOne's animations archive (only the EDU, not the animations or formations etc. that makes the AI use the botched shieldwall ability) and then changing all instances of "spear" in "stat_pri_attr" and "stat_sec_attr" to "light_spear,spear_bonus_4".

This results in rigid units, fighting in proper formation without morphing together, but also retains the high lethality of combat, with sensitive morale that forces you to really take care that your units do not mass rout. All in all a quite thrilling experience I think.

I might look more into the balance, but if anyone wants to try what I've done, here's a link.

Update: Higher unit count for some units that were way too small compared to cost/upkeep (e.g. Macedonian, Thessalian, and Molossian hoplites): EDU

Update2: Re-introduced the increased upkeep cost (4.1 just adds 100 more to each unit, which is a bit arbitrary, but it's better than the very low upkeep of 0.99), followed 4.1's slightly tighter unit spacing for hoplite units and made it even tighter, decreased the attack delay for hoplite units (though not to zero as 4.1 did), and allowed more units in custom battles: link.

Update3: Hoplite units are now eight ranks deep by default (4.1 had 6 ranks). I also went back to the 0.99 formations for the AI, since the Theban (strong left angled) formation introduced by 4.1 is both anachronistic (Battle of Leuctra, 371 BC) and didn't do any favours to the AI. Hoplite formations are now generally made up of traditional lines. The AI will also not use either shield wall or defend stance since it was never capable of using them effectively; shield wall always ending up with the AI getting itself flanked due to tighter formation and the forwards push tendency of the ability; and defend stance only working if you hold still without actively attacking, and then attack when the enemy stamina is lower than yours (both of which the AI is incapable of doing). Here are the links: EDU and formations (identical to 0.99 formations). EDIT: See below for newer version.

[TGDesert]

dude thank you !!!!!! along with 4.1 and these two files its brilliant, you made the this awesome mod better

[Dansk viking]

Cheers!

Also, for the campaign, makes sure you move "background_script.txt" from the 4.1 "scripts" folder into "...\Rome Total War Gold\bi\hcs\data\scripts\show_me" (and overwrite the old one). Otherwise the economic script is broken.

[Dansk viking]

So, I've done some more work on this for both files.

EDU
- Hoplite units now won't use their secondary weapon, rather they will always be using the spear. Unfortunately it was very arbitrary whether the units used their spears or their swords; they would always use the sword in the initial charge, which doesn't make sense, and if they weren't given orders they would switch to sword en-masse. While it was nice to see some of the front-line men using their sword on occasion, the other issues with it weighed heavier on the negative side of things.
- I've actually reintroduced the fourth number in the "soldier" row that appears to affect soldier spacing when engaged in offensive melee. 4.1 set the value to 0.1 which made everyone clump together unrealistically, morphing and clipping - but I found that setting the value to 0.3 would keep proper mass while preventing the blobbing up of the unit when they engage out of "defend" mode. This way the units will keep a tight hoplite formation even when attacking. The units with this change (only hoplite, and hoplite-like units) are much more effective because more soldiers will be able to attack simultaneously due to the tighter spacing. I found that the value I chose would still allow defensive play, i.e. the use of "defend" mode without being overwhelmed by the enemy onslaught, so it seems pretty well balanced. Of course, this means hoplite units will be the most effective melee units by far, which I think is only right for this mod.

Formations
- I've made a new custom formation for all the greek factions that use a hoplite general unit: They will form a single line with the general on the honourable right flank, which was the tradition of the time, skirmishers on the flanks alongside cavalry, and archers at the back.

I actually thought about making a custom Theban line formation, but as it wasn't invented yet in this time-frame I refrained from it. I did test the formation with massed left flank against the new traditional formation I made above, and I succeeded in smashing it as long as I supported with cavalry and kept my angled line to the right staggered behind, and on defend mode during the initial onslaught, keeping them out of the fight just long enough for their right flank to break. Fun stuff, but I think it should be reserved for the player to come up with these innovations rather than trying to make the AI use such formations (which they probably can't do effectively anyway).



Update:
- Increased the upkeep and recruitment cost for hoplite units (and the few other units also affected by the tighter formation) since they're now significantly more effective than other infantry.
- Slowed down their attack speed slightly again, and removed their spear_bonus, to balance with other units. Some other units have gotten a slight attack speed increase.
- Included a descr_model_battle.txt file that fixes some units that were using the wrong skeleton/animations (most notably the cavalry retinues used by some Greek factions).

Update2:
- Made the Greek factions that have mounted generals use a custom version of the regular Greek line, with the general behind (exception being the Macedonians who have their own custom formation with cavalry and general on the right flank).
- Fixed more units that were using the wrong animations (e.g. Macedonian hoplite using sword animation with spear).
- Increased the morale of regular Persian spears by 1 (and previously various Persian units received some faster attacks etc. to make them stand a better chance against Greek armies).

Update3:
- Units with the extra tight formation can no longer hide.


Links: EDU, formations & DMB

[Dansk viking]

Here, I made a video showing how the hoplite combat (and regular Greek formation) looks with my tweaks: