Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: About historical accurancy of this mod

  1. #1

    Default About historical accurancy of this mod

    1) Warfare is fine but except from the pikes. They didn't use pikes in this age.
    2)Trojans should have Greek and eastern skin because they are Pelasgoi. Except from Anatolian units in the faction.
    3)Units and for the other factions that they don't have.
    4)More dynamic loadscreens? New music?
    5)Lybian swordsmen and not Lybian paid swordsmen.
    6)Larger variety of weapons for every unit.
    7)Extra estern skin from Attila for Mesopotamian and Iranian factions for larger variey.
    8)African javellimen for Minoans? Rename it to slave javellimens.
    9)All Greek units except from Minoans should have Greek and Spartan skin. Minoans should have eastern and barbarian eastern skin.
    10)More beards and helmets with horns for Minoans.
    11)Invisible weapons for chariot archers, eastern slingers, assyrian bowmen. Please fix it.
    12) What period are we talking about?
    13)More units in the future for all factions.
    14)Rename babylonian spearmen to eastern spearmen or make one separate unit.
    15)More beards for Hittites and some tall hats like Mycenaeans. Also the tall hat with horns for Mycenaeans nobles like Hittites. They had some common warfare.
    16)Some barbarian eastern skin for pharaoh foot guards like some others.
    17)Less African skin for egyptian units.
    18)No eastern skin for Ionian infantry but Greek.
    19)Naval and cavalry units?
    20) No comment for Campaign because it isn't ready yet.

    Developers think about this thread and answer me.

  2. #2
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Not Earth
    Posts
    1,729

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    1) The exact pike formation we use is a bit anachronistic yes, but as for the actual weapon used I will cite this fresco from Akrotiri. This image and others like it is what we base our pike units on. We know that the resemblance isnt perfect, and it will be honed in the future but this art is closer to pikes than standard 'spears'.
    2)I have yet to completely tack down the Trojans ethnicity, but material evidence does point to much heavier Luwian and Anatolian influence than Grecian, which does exist still. Also, the term "Pelasgoi" refers vaguely to pre-greek populations, and was used by the ancient Greeks themselves and not mainstream modern historians. If you look at the area the Pelasgians inhabited, it doesn't overlap with any identifiable linguistic or archaeological group, certainly not by the LBA.
    3)You are going to have to be much more specific
    4)not a historical accuracy complaint
    5)the term "paid" is used to denote that they are tacked-on mercenaries, not a integral part of the army itself
    6)This is more a matter of gameplay, when you have units like "swordsmen" it doesnt suit itself well to have axes and clubs in that same unit.
    7)not a historical accuracy complaint
    8)There is zero evidence for the African javelins shown in the Captain of the Blacks fresco at Knossos being slaves, and as far as I know it is even difficult to argue slavery existed at all in Minoan crete.
    9)I based the Minoans appearance on their frescoes, and their art portrays them as more Mediterranean/Grecian than the very stereotypical 'eastern' look that the eastern skins have in Rome II.
    10)Most minoan art with some exceptions, doesn't have many beards, although whether that was a case of social classes or regional variation I dunno(Castleden, Minoan Life in Bronze Age Crete)
    11)not a historical accuracy complaint, but that bug has been noted and will be gone in the next update.
    12) Late Bronze Age; c.1500-1000 BC, but most of the units are around 1350 BC in appearance.
    13)not a historical accuracy complaint
    14)not a historical accuracy complaint
    15)Hittites by and large did not have beards, which was one reason they were called hmty, or women warriors by the Egyptians. As for those tall crowns you see at Yazilikaya and other Hittite sites, they are associated overwhelmingly with gods, not people. Observe the difference between the kings hat and the gods crown in this relief
    16)I will consider that, possibly change for the next update.
    17)My idea was to show the blending of Nubians and Egyptians at the height of the New Kingdom, but I may lower that ratio a bit.
    18)That is a valid point, and I will most likely change that for the next update
    19)not a historical accuracy complaint
    20)not a historical accuracy complaint

    Let me know if you need specific details or sourcing on any of the points made.

  3. #3
    GreenyRepublic's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Kent, United Kingdom.
    Posts
    48

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    I'll address the non-historical accuracy complaints:

    3)Units and for the other factions that they don't have.
    This mod is a work in progress, and more units and factions will be added as they are completed.

    4)More dynamic loadscreens? New music?
    I don't quite understand what you're asking for by 'more dynamic' loading screens. As for music, we don't have a composer on the team and are unlikely to have one any time in the near future.

    6)Larger variety of weapons for every unit.
    See above, we can't simply pull new assets out of thin air, they take time.


    7)Extra estern skin from Attila for Mesopotamian and Iranian factions for larger variey.
    See above again, especially for skins and human character models, as they would be particularly time-consuming.


    11)Invisible weapons for chariot archers, eastern slingers, assyrian bowmen. Please fix it.
    We are aware of these bugs and are working to fix them.


    13)More units in the future for all factions.
    We believe that each faction has enough units as it stands, any more would begin to make the rosters little bloated in my view.



    14)Rename babylonian spearmen to eastern spearmen or make one separate unit.
    Why?


    19)Naval and cavalry units?
    Whilst I would love to add naval units (and they will be necessary if we ever want to release a campaign), the graphical assets required would be a very large undertaking, and as such they are some way off. As for cavalry, I believe that they were not in widespread usage during the period we are covering.


    Hope that this clears things up a bit.

  4. #4

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    Yes, sorry for my non historical issues. I gave wrong name to this thread. I wonder how to rename this thread.
    1)interesting picture but i dont think that it is realistic. We know that pikes were used for first time from Macedonians in the middle of 4th century BC. Also you can't fight with pike and carry large shield, you dont have balance and you are more slower than before. There are mods in steam with long spears and not pikes. You can replace the pikes with them and you are great.
    2) In every source i read that Trojans belong in group of Pelasgoi, in pictures have more common characteristics with Greeks than easterns, also many common things in culture. Even the Greek mythology connect them with Greeks.
    3)You don't have units for all factions. Some rosters are empty. But as you said you will add in the future.
    4) Sorry, it isn't. Forget the music, you have already much to do. About loading screens there are pictures in internet with battles of this age. You can use them.
    5)Ok, hold this name.
    6)Ok, the units with name swordsmen or any specific unit name don't add other weapons but in the rest units you can if you have time to do this.
    7)I just suggested it for variation.
    8)http://i.imgur.com/PWa4zLu.jpg actually the slaves are libyans but you can make one other unit and rename it slave Libyan javellimen. Because there is one african unit in this picture http://i.imgur.com/E6aN8DA.png
    9)Yes, you have right so remove the stereotypical eastern skin in all units and replace it with this wonderful barbarian-eastern skin. Good job guys. You didn't answer me about Mycenaeans.
    10) Yes, the beards style came later in 14th century BC when Mycenaeans defeated Minoans. Minoan civilization exist from 3650 to 1400 BCE.
    11)Yes it isn't historical complaint but it is bug. Iam glad you will fix it.
    12)I think that your Era is much older.For example, as i said the Minoan civilization ended in 1400 BC.
    13)Yes, you told in steam that you will add more units in the future and i just wanted to refer it and here.
    14)You added this unit in factions that you shouldn't add it because belongs only to Babylonians. For this reason, you can rename it to eastern spearmen without delete or make separate unit.
    15)Some pictures show them with beards and some others not. So, you can put probability for every unit 0.6 at least. As for the helmet forget it, i meant this one from sea people but they didn't have it the Hittites.
    18) Actually it shouldn't exist this unit at this age.
    19) I think it is. Not add cavalry for this Era but you should add naval units.
    20)Yes, it isn't but i just wanted to refer it.

  5. #5

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    Quote Originally Posted by alexandros24794 View Post
    Yes, sorry for my non historical issues. I gave wrong name to this thread. I wonder how to rename this thread.
    1)interesting picture but i dont think that it is realistic. We know that pikes were used for first time from Macedonians in the middle of 4th century BC. Also you can't fight with pike and carry large shield, you dont have balance and you are more slower than before. There are mods in steam with long spears and not pikes. You can replace the pikes with them and you are great.
    2) In every source i read that Trojans belong in group of Pelasgoi, in pictures have more common characteristics with Greeks than easterns, also many common things in culture. Even the Greek mythology connect them with Greeks.
    3)You don't have units for all factions. Some rosters are empty. But as you said you will add in the future.
    4) Sorry, it isn't. Forget the music, you have already much to do. About loading screens there are pictures in internet with battles of this age. You can use them.
    5)Ok, hold this name.
    6)Ok, the units with name swordsmen or any specific unit name don't add other weapons but in the rest units you can if you have time to do this.
    7)I just suggested it for variation.
    8)http://i.imgur.com/PWa4zLu.jpg actually the slaves are libyans but you can make one other unit and rename it slave Libyan javellimen. Because there is one african unit in this picture http://i.imgur.com/E6aN8DA.png
    9)Yes, you have right so remove the stereotypical eastern skin in all units and replace it with this wonderful barbarian-eastern skin. Good job guys. You didn't answer me about Mycenaeans.
    10) Yes, the beards style came later in 14th century BC when Mycenaeans defeated Minoans. Minoan civilization exist from 3650 to 1400 BCE.
    11)Yes it isn't historical complaint but it is bug. Iam glad you will fix it.
    12)I think that your Era is much older.For example, as i said the Minoan civilization ended in 1400 BC.
    13)Yes, you told in steam that you will add more units in the future and i just wanted to refer it and here.
    14)You added this unit in factions that you shouldn't add it because belongs only to Babylonians. For this reason, you can rename it to eastern spearmen without delete or make separate unit.
    15)Some pictures show them with beards and some others not. So, you can put probability for every unit 0.6 at least. As for the helmet forget it, i meant this one from sea people but they didn't have it the Hittites.
    18) Actually it shouldn't exist this unit at this age.
    19) I think it is. Not add cavalry for this Era but you should add naval units.
    20)Yes, it isn't but i just wanted to refer it.
    While I can't address every point here, I do have some insight to offer for a few of your reinforced concerns

    1) It is every bit realistic, I think the misunderstanding is the appearance of the pike formation in the game. Unfortunately there is little to nothing to we can to change this. However, as the one who did the battle mechanics overhaul, I have altered the mechanics behind the pike formation to make it perform more realistic of the time period. They're not going to be AS deadly from the front, and are more vulnerable from the flanks and rear. Going into more detail, pikes have an attack radius, weapon length, attack refresh rate and some other factors. The radius was lowered so their flanks are more vulnerable and in battle maneuvering will result in more losses and more vulnerability. The weapon length was shortened (statistically not visually) so the enemy has better chance to "breach" and also aids in maneuvering in combat into a semi-flank, as they're not being held back further by the pikes. Also the refresh rate (associated with the time in between attacks while in combat) - Not easy to word simply but basically translates into how deadly they are. So what you have is a line that will hold against basically anything (thats just the way it is) but won't kill as many as fast, will take more losses and is much more vulnerable. On top of all that the way ranged units were tweaked to in the overhaul makes them very vulnerable.. OH! And I made them slower moving and slower to maneuver. So there you have it.. while they may look the same they don't perform the same.

    2) The Trojans were not Pelasgoi, plain and simple lol.

    10+12) First and foremost Minoan culture persisted, until about 1100ish BC. Remember the Mycenaean's adopted a large amount from the Minoans prior to this as well. The Mycenaean invasion didn't immediately stomp out the fire that was the Minoan culture, it declined steadily over the next couple hundred years. In the context of the mod, which starts at 1500bc, the minoans are at their zenith. The idea of total war isn't to make you walk through history accurately, its to put you in a historically accurate start position, then its up to you what path you take. Therefore why implement things which would not be historical at the start of the mod, when if you play as the Minoans, the idea is not to be conquered by the Mycenaeans, thereby continuing their thalassocracy and culture to reach new heights. With your logic we'd have to make "faction-centric" variants for every campaign.

    14) If you read the unit description, I believe it mentions being "hired" in any case its meant to be a mercenary unit recruitable by factions with access.

    19) Naval units were never said to be discounted from the mod they're simply not a priority as they're more prevalent to the campaign and will require a lot of work, which would be more productive if used in other areas for the time being.
    Last edited by Massicio2; January 25, 2016 at 07:10 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    I would like to thank the Age of Bronze team for introducing me to the term Thalassocracy, and for the very enjoyable mod.

  7. #7
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Not Earth
    Posts
    1,729

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    Quote Originally Posted by hittitechar View Post
    I would like to thank the Age of Bronze team for introducing me to the term Thalassocracy, and for the very enjoyable mod.
    You're welcome, and we agree, Thalassocracy is a critically under-used word

  8. #8

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontfearme22 View Post
    You're welcome, and we agree, Thalassocracy is a critically under-used word
    And tellurocracy for its contrary .(or maybe it is tellucracy...)

  9. #9

    Default Re: About historical accurancy of this mod

    though it is difficult to prove without a doubt, there is strong argument to be made that Troy was actually the Hittite vassal state of Wilusa. It is possible that Alaksandu (who we know of because of his correspondence letters with Muwatalli II in 1280 BC) is actually Homer's Alexandros of Illion... better known as Paris of Troy.

    In addition, The Greek term for Troy was Illios (hence Homer's Illiad), a possible translation for Hittite Wilusa. I think its perfectly acceptable to use Anatolian skins and templates for Trojan units.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •