Proposal:Can some factions don't have navies In the mod for historical reasons?

[FrozenmenSS]

Proposal:Can some factions don't have navies because 50% of the factions in the mod didnt had naval traditions in the medieval era.Can we fix this by introduction of Area of recruitment with the naval regions for recruitment of navies.Can it be done?

Example: Hungary or the Cummans never had navies but can recruit a naval generic Admiral unit who can recruit in the Black Sea for example mixture of Italian and Greek ships from that naval region.if this navy is near the persian gulf - Arabian, Persian and Indian vessels.And also getting naval mercenaries for the navy.This will bring tons of immersion to the campaign comparing each playable faction's let's plays.

What you think guys on the idea? It's Also less work for the Mod Team creating copy pasted naval unit for each faction this way.

[jan_boruta]

I don't know about others, but as a player, I'd be pretty upset if my choices were so arbitrarily restricted. If your empire spans half of the continent, you should be able to learn how to build ships yourself.

Speaking of ships and looking at Attila models, the naval rosters would be pretty limited regardless. Two types of galleys and galiots for Mediterranean powers, a couple dromons for the Greeks and two types of dhows for the Arabs at best. The Roman transport ship could stand in for a nef or a cog for northern European factions, and the Norse ships could be used by the - duh - Norse and Rus factions.

[Swarbs]

I agree with jan - seems to restrict immersion to me by saying "you are a land empire, you will have no good ships no matter what you try to do". I'd rather make it more difficult for those factions to recruit ships - so they have to build higher level ports to access ships, or research a specific branch of technology to gain access to anything but basic naval units. This would reflect the need to develop naval traditions if desired, and also open up more choice to the player rather than taking it away.

Also there is no way to eliminate the ability of armies to take to sea, so even if you try to stop them building ships they can still transport their land units by sea.

[KAM 2150]

Plus certain nations did not need large navies due to limited sea access or simply did not had access to sea at all, but it does not mean that if Bohemia will hold some Baltic regions for 100 years, they will not be able to build ships. For example you would not say at first glance that Northern Slavs had strong naval traditions, but Pomeranian prince Ratibor I made few succesful naval invasions in XII century against Denmark, when he sacked and burned down their capital at Roskilde and when he landed huge naval invasion (650 ships according to Pomeranian sources and 780 according to Snorri Sturluson, probably both exaggarated, but even if only half of them were real, it was still impressive!) when he sacked Kungahälla.

[FrozenmenSS]

I was talking about AOR system for the sea regions that can help the player.Just like the AOR system you arent handicapped compared with the other factions. Just the nomads have to rely on local naval traditional for the region. I'm not advocating no navies for the campaign.
Just like the axillaries for Rome in Rome 2. You go to Syria and you can recruit Syrian archers.In Egypt elephants.but they aren't recruitable in Italy.

This way it will save time when making the units.Unit cards and so on.

[You_Guess_Who]

I understand, and I support wholeheartedly of your proposal, Frozenmen. However, the way you worded it is misleading - no wonder it caused misunderstandings. Its not that some factions should not have navies - It should be some factions should not have its own set shipbuilding tradition.

I don't know about others, but as a player, I'd be pretty upset if my choices were so arbitrarily restricted. If your empire spans half of the continent, you should be able to learn how to build ships yourself.

Exactly. And that's precisely the reason Frozenmen proposed this. Given the right circumstances, a land empire without naval tradition of its own can potentially have even greater variety of ships than maritime factions (but perhaps not as good as the ones from great maritime empires)

Speaking of ships and looking at Attila models, the naval rosters would be pretty limited regardless. Two types of galleys and galiots for Mediterranean powers, a couple dromons for the Greeks and two types of dhows for the Arabs at best. The Roman transport ship could stand in for a nef or a cog for northern European factions, and the Norse ships could be used by the - duh - Norse and Rus factions.

Thats assuming naval models making are not possible. Wasn't Slytacular said he'll give it some try? He can build culverins for sure - and ships variantmodels are just much bigger variantmodels than the ones used by men. Sure, there are two aspects of ship models: the models_naval (EFlines, float, collision, cam) and variant (the way it looks). I believe the second aspect is doable, and the first aspect are theoretically possible even though it is very complicated.

Also, the Arabs didn't use sailing "dhows" as warships. They adopted Levantine and Coptic Egyptian ships; Late Medieval Muslim navies used pretty much the same basic war galley design as other Meditteranean navies, with small differences. Most ships in the Mediterranean of that time use triangular sails anyway, even European ships.

Also there is no way to eliminate the ability of armies to take to sea, so even if you try to stop them building ships they can still transport their land units by sea.

This is not what he meant.

Plus certain nations did not need large navies due to limited sea access or simply did not had access to sea at all, but it does not mean that if Bohemia will hold some Baltic regions for 100 years, they will not be able to build ships. For example you would not say at first glance that Northern Slavs had strong naval traditions, but Pomeranian prince Ratibor I made few succesful naval invasions in XII century against Denmark, when he sacked and burned down their capital at Roskilde and when he landed huge naval invasion (650 ships according to Pomeranian sources and 780 according to Snorri Sturluson, probably both exaggarated, but even if only half of them were real, it was still impressive!) when he sacked Kungahälla.

True.

This is why the proposed system will give land empires a chance to build naval tradition according on which coastal region it possesses. If your faction doesn't have its own naval tradition, then you'll adopt the naval tradition of coastal peoples you conquer.

[Swarbs]

This is why the proposed system will give land empires a chance to build naval tradition according on which coastal region it possesses. If your faction doesn't have its own naval tradition, then you'll adopt the naval tradition of coastal peoples you conquer.

I would support an AOR system for naval vessels in important maritime regions, although I think they should be available to all factions not just land empires.

But I still disagree with the premise that a predominantly land empire wouldn't develop its own naval traditions and vessels over time with sustained access to the sea. Ultimately, whilst they may require more research to get there, factions like Hungary and the Cumans could still have built their own warships comparable to those of maritime nations.

Take the example of the Arabs - at first they copied the Byzantine dromon design and used locals to build it. But as you point out, late Arab and Turkish navies used the same designs as everyone else. Prolonged exposure to naval warfare and trading meant they adopted the best designs at the time, not just the designs from the local area they conquered. Same logic can be applied to the Hungarians, Cumans and any other faction which has limited naval exposure at the start date.

[You_Guess_Who]

I would support an AOR system for naval vessels in important maritime regions, although I think they should be available to all factions not just land empires.

Agreed. This would be very helpful to factions that have ports in different seas. For instance France can have a hardy Cog fleet on the Atlantic, and swift Galleys on the Mediterranean.

[Linke]

And later from the 14th century the scandinavians should abandon longships for cogs

[finix]

Actually I'm working on building a system where fractions such as Tatars and Mongols and others nomadic tribes, will not be able to make their own ships and ports. They will rely only the mercenary ships,
and for ports will have what captured from other factions without can develop them. For the last I'm not sure if the game engine allows it yet.

My opinion is that everyone should have access to ships, the difference is that some will only use mercenary ships