Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Campaign Map Master Thread

[Heisenburrg]

Oh, pleeease Zsi. Why?

Denmark would just loose one region, which is not really in its control at 1212 and which could easily be conquered by a player after start. And instead of this you could win a really pleasing, accurate arrangement for all german states as well as keeping Erfurt and Thuringia, like you wanted. I bet all the other guys taking part in this debate would be satisfied with this.

Keeping Brandenburg this low and in the region, in which indeed Dresden or Leipzig originally are -the most saxonian of all saxon cities- would be just... weird. Really.

[zsimmortal]

Oh, pleeease Zsi. Why?

Denmark would just loose one region, which is not really in its control at 1212 and which could easily be conquered by a player after start. And instead of this you could win a really pleasing, accurate arrangement for all german states as well as keeping Erfurt and Thuringia, like you wanted. I bet all the other guys taking part in this debate would be satisfied with this.

I'm unsure what you mean by not really under its control. As far as I can tell, Rügen and the mainland had become part of Denmark as a vassal.

I don't think the current set-up is bad to begin with, I just hate the current settlement placement for Brandenburg, which is not fixed by sending it to the Baltic.

And there's no real debate. I suggested some changes to France and Germany to fix some very easily re-arrangeable stuff and it was OK'd by warman.

Keeping Brandenburg this low and in the region, in which indeed Dresden or Leipzig originally are -the most saxonian of all saxon cities- would be just... weird. Really.

It is. But so is the placement of Paris and some other bizarre set-ups that were forced upon us by the map. The only alternative to what I'm suggesting is simply removing Brandenburg instead.

[Heisenburrg]

First to the danish province and why Brandenburg could fit the region as well...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

With "not really under control" I mean "not completely under control". Sure, you are very right in the point, that Denmark temporarily conquered big parts of Pommerania, Mecklenburg, Holstein and Rügen. Last one at least for more than a couple of years.

But there are important arguments for the other view, too;
First point would be that the battles for this area lastet at least until 1214/1215, when emperor Friedrich II. officially acknowledged denmark´s supremacy in this area and transferred all vassal rights to the danish kingdom. After that, the occupation held for only 10 years. In the Battle of Mölln (1225) and Bornhöved (1227) Denmark lost almost all of these countries, except Rügen again. The conquered region were never under full and save control.
Second point would be that some countries like the south-west of the regarded region stayed fought area as long the occupation lastet. The Duchy of Schwerin was partially occupied but never neither acceptet the danish supremacy, nor was officially part of this danish province.
Third point; Another big part of the regarded region´s south was indeed part of the Duchy of Brandenburg - for example most parts of the former "Nordmark", which became as the so called "Mark Brandenburg" the core region of the Duchy of Brandenburg in the late 12th century. Brandenburg will even extend further north in later years and will for example include the whole region of Vorpommern (after the Battle of Bornhöved 1227, de facto 1231), so giving this faction to the Stralsund-Region is also very appropriate in view of its later development.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qim...d85c647954f7-c

If you want I could search for other sources, but here is at least a map showing the empire to the reign of Friedrich II. It implies what journey Brandenburg and the baltic coast will take and shows that Brandenburg is very fitting to this baltic region. The central part between the rivers Elbe and Oder is approximately the former Nordmark.

So the essence of my arguements would be this; The problem with determine an ownership for the Stralsund-region is, that it was a fought region in 1212.
Could you historically say, the danes will likely winning this conflict shortly after the given starting situation? Yes. Could you say they already won the conflict and had the absolute supremacy there? No, if anything definitely not until 1214/1215. Could you say that Brandenburg owned or will own a remarkable part of the Stralsund-region in 1212 or shortly after, has its core region/largest country part lying there and is one of the more important german duchies in this time? Rather yes. Is a faction´s temporary, short-term province historically and gameplaywise more important than one of a faction´s main duchies? Imo, no. After all these questions and under consideration of importance for gameplay and historical accuracy; which faction would you rather prefer in the assignment of the Stralsund-region for the year 1212 as starting date? Imo... defenitely Brandenburg.



Some other remarks and a compromise proposal...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

With the debate I meant in first line the debate of your fans about some inconsistencies in the german duchie´s arrangement here in the forum.

Look, the point is this; We both want that this mod is as accurate and perfect as it could be. But these change of the german-duchy-arrangement is really worse than before. I mean your changes in France are very good, no complaining about that, but...
Do you want to remove a very important duchy like Thuringia and place Saxony/Brandenburg wrong while keeping an fought, unstable and temporarily existent danish province? And do you want this rather than placing Brandenburg in the same fought province it historically belongs for hundreds of years? Then you would have maybe Nancy and Dijon on the right place but thats for the price of an proper arrangement of the HRE states.

In this case I would rather see a mix of your changes with the current arrangement; Saxony, Thuringia and Brandenburg stay like they are in the current preview and HRE got only one province - Frankfurt. All of your other changes in France are not challanged. Saxony in the Braunschweig-Province makes more sense historically and geographically than Saxony in the Erfurt-Province or getting completely rid of Thuringia.
That would be a compromise. (because Braunschweig-Lüneburg is something like a former part of Saxony)

Sry, it was a longer text. Hope you will read it anyway.

[Knight2708]

I think what it comes down to for me is that neither of the two provinces matche Brandenburg's location exactly. However, given that we wont be able to give the faction a location that is entirely accurate no matter what, it comes down to the question of what will make a more significant and substantial addition to the mod adding another whole faction (Thuringia) or adding one additional province to a faction that is already in the mod with its core territories (Denmark)?

[zsimmortal]

I think what it comes down to for me is that neither of the two provinces matche Brandenburg's location exactly. However, given that we wont be able to give the faction a location that is entirely accurate no matter what, it comes down to the question of what will make a more significant and substantial addition to the mod adding another whole faction (Thuringia) or adding one additional province to a faction that is already in the mod with its core territories (Denmark)?

The number of factions on the map becomes pointless at a certain point. We've already capped the number of playable factions (and pushed the UI to the limit in doing so) and Thuringia, like a few of the HRE factions will not be playable. If the argument is that it is simply better to have more factions on the map, then we could further split every single faction into more vassals, but I do not see any benefit to it.

This decision is a pure gameplay decision, I have no emotional investment in it. I'm sorry for anyone who feels let down, but there's only so much I and the rest of the team can do and pleasing everyone is simply not something we'll ever be able to achieve.

[Heisenburrg]

The number of factions on the map becomes pointless at a certain point. We've already capped the number of playable factions (and pushed the UI to the limit in doing so) and Thuringia, like a few of the HRE factions will not be playable. If the argument is that it is simply better to have more factions on the map, then we could further split every single faction into more vassals, but I do not see any benefit to it.

This decision is a pure gameplay decision, I have no emotional investment in it. I'm sorry for anyone who feels let down, but there's only so much I and the rest of the team can do and pleasing everyone is simply not something we'll ever be able to achieve.

We know, that not every faction could be presented and if you dont want to put Thuringia in, it is your decision. Regardless of that we will support and thank you for your work. The point is, that it was already in and could be without a problem.

I think this mod has still the claim of beeing as historically accurate as it could be. Letting completely down an objectively important state like Thuringia, which was on a very correct location, and replacing it with saxony, which dont really fits the place, as well as trying to keep Brandenburg unavoidably in the saxon Dresden-Region (which it is exactly) while there is a better solution, seems not like trying to be as accurate as it could be... No offense, do like you want in this case, but I have to advise against it. You could make some of your fans really happy with this and it would not even interfer with your very right changes in france so... where is the problem?

Or here´s the other option without any efford; leaving germany like it is in the current preview. Thuringia to Erfurt, Brandenburg to Magdeburg, Saxony to Braunschweig (HRE, Saxony or Braunschweig-Lüneburg... they´re after all all factions in saxonian tradition at this point... so this decision would be ok). HRE would have just Frankfurt.

Come on, zsi... Give us a tiny early christmas present.

[GasMask]

I really can not wait for this mod to be fully released in all its glory with a full expansive campaign and sorts. I have been lurking for a while and have been utterly amazed by the progress the people making the mod are putting in. Just want to say thank you for the hard work .

[zsimmortal]

I think this mod has still the claim of beeing as historically accurate as it could be. Letting completely down an objectively important state like Thuringia, which was on a very correct location, and replacing it with saxony, which dont really fits the place, as well as trying to keep Brandenburg unavoidably in the saxon Dresden-Region (which it is) while there is a better solution, seems not like trying to be as accurate as it could be... No offense, do like you want in this case, but I have to advise against it. You could make some of your fans really happy with this and it would not even interfer with your very right changes in france so... where is the problem?

There's plenty of objectively important states that we simply cannot fit into the HRE territory. The Palatinate of the Rhine, the Margraviate of Baden, the Prince-Archbishopric of Köln and most important of all, the Prince-Archbishopric of Mainz. It comes down to choices, in which case, the Imperial lands of the duchy of Swabia were the most important of the group.

The Askanier title around Wittenberg (i.e. what would eventually become the center of the Electorate of Saxony along with Meissen) was a choice made based on current work done, amongst other things. The only thing that really bothers me about Brandenburg is the settlement, not the region per se. The settlement is about halfway (from memory) between Dresden and Brandenburg, which makes it look a bit goofy especially when consider the placement of Wittenberg, but alas, Attila gave us very little campaign map modability.

That's pretty much the last thing I'll say about this topic anymore.

[Heisenburrg]

Yeah, ok. This does not explain, why you are so strongly against one of these two offered solutions and -excuse me- imo it´s complete nonsense to make it this way, but I see that you won´t change your plans in this case and thats alright. Nevermind, let us move on.

[HannibalExMachina]

Lets just be glad that we can even have multiple german factions. In M2TW and most of its mods its just "HRE".

ah, but have you tried dHRR?

[Filips Augustus]

Lol I changed my text from "M2TW and its mods" to "M2TW and most of its mods" after remembering that mod .

[Sobakel]

Soon^​tm

[Count of Parma]

so i heard it's possible to change city location but it's illegal, so what happens if you do? Just out of curiosity

[zsimmortal]

so i heard it's possible to change city location but it's illegal, so what happens if you do? Just out of curiosity

Not changing city location. It is altering the .exe file that is illegal. CA can shut down a steam page or send you a cease and desist letter if you put it elsewhere. Essentially, you're going to get in legal trouble.

[Draythur]

hey @zsimmortal, thanks for standing up for denmark on this one!!! If anything it would make more sense to give the region higher initial civil unrest, and then let events unfold and see if Thuringian rebels pop up, as that would more properly describe the events as they unfolded in my opinion, but anyways, just wanted to say thanks, and looking forward to the final results!

Keep doing what you do!

[Athos187]

This and Ancient Empires are going to be amazing

[Poacher886]

Not changing city location. It is altering the .exe file that is illegal. CA can shut down a steam page or send you a cease and desist letter if you put it elsewhere. Essentially, you're going to get in legal trouble.

Yes maybe, but would they really??, for a mod?. especially for a mod thats going to increase sales of Atilla significantly...indeed im surprised they have not offered you a hand polishing it!!

[Commissar Caligula_]

I don't think that Persian/Russian team changed the .exe to move the city location btw. So it is possible if they agree to tell ya how.

[Poacher886]

Well i'll be honest, this time last year i was gutted at the Mod not being ready for the holiday period after a few hints to suggest otherwise......i had no idea i'd be thinking the same the following year.

[Dontfearme22]

Well i'll be honest, this time last year i was gutted at the Mod not being ready for the holiday period after a few hints to suggest otherwise......i had no idea i'd be thinking the same the following year.

you really shouldn't be in the modding community if you get easily wrecked over absurd development times. Its practically tradition for mods to take forever, and major overhauls like this even longer.

We have been churning out work all year, but we had to basically restart the campaign from scratch while doing a complete balancing overhaul. All of that was this year.