[CAMPAIGN] Manpower System for Ancient Empires, By Causeless

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Well depending on if you can get units tied to manpower in specific regions, you could always have cretan archers lowering pop in crete everytime they are recruited. It would be a cool thing if we could extended recruitment times the further you go from the province, so recruiting numidians in germany is fine, but it will take them a year to reach you. Pretty sure that could be done with AoR DB stuff.

I say this feature was implemented in NTW mods. I could recruit units from France while they took turns to come into my army.

A great feature!

[Argive Strategos]

I was reading about the allies that will be implemented, if for example Macedon has a treaty with the Achaean league, it can recruit Greek hoplites for example? That would be amazing, Greek hoplites were one of my favourite units, I saw pergamon having them, they look amazing, I love the idea of this feature, I would love to recruit these type of units in the form of allies, as the Macedonians recruited them historically. I am so hyped, this is awesome.

[Causeless]

Just a small progress report.

I've finished with some tentative multiplayer support, and so now I should be able to move onto features which directly affect gameplay. I would release a build just now, but there's not a lot added - mostly technical stuff, and the multiplayer is as-of-yet untested.

[ABH2]

I was reading about the allies that will be implemented, if for example Macedon has a treaty with the Achaean league, it can recruit Greek hoplites for example? That would be amazing, Greek hoplites were one of my favourite units, I saw pergamon having them, they look amazing, I love the idea of this feature, I would love to recruit these type of units in the form of allies, as the Macedonians recruited them historically. I am so hyped, this is awesome.

To be clear, it is just something discussed at the moment. In terms of whether this will happen, I can't say yet.

[Xranitel]

Hello! And you will show the population statistics for a particular city (as Mitch), or for the region as a whole?

[sasquatch32794]

Will population be tied to the economy? Ie the more people you have the more money you make? This could make a pretty interesting dynamic where wars would effect more than just border settlements but the entire empire as you are levying troops across the land and taking away the primary economic power house of this time which is men of military age.

[Willhelm123]

That might start getting a bit too complex. Perhaps just an economic bonus and negative for either high or low manpower reserves.

[sasquatch32794]

That might start getting a bit too complex. Perhaps just an economic bonus and negative for either high or low manpower reserves.

How would that be getting too complex? You would just have something like +1 gold per person in the poor class, +2 gold for people in middle class, and +3 gold per person in high class. A feature like this could hugely improve the depth of the economy in total war. It would force the player to be more willing to end wars if they are losing large numbers of troops. As of right now I would see myself and most players only really start thinking about ending wars when we are finally depleting all our manpower reserves. However if you started making less and less money and being able to have less and less troops then one would be much more cautious about starting and dragging out wars.

Furthermore it would make enemy factions sacking and exterminating your regions have much longer lasting effects.

[Petellius]

because that's not how scripting (or modding in general) really works.. :/ its a little more complex than what you suggest.

[Causeless]

Hello! And you will show the population statistics for a particular city (as Mitch), or for the region as a whole?

Region as a whole.

Will population be tied to the economy? Ie the more people you have the more money you make? This could make a pretty interesting dynamic where wars would effect more than just border settlements but the entire empire as you are levying troops across the land and taking away the primary economic power house of this time which is men of military age.

As Willhelm noted, it can get complex (especially when taking the balance into account and not just pure tech in implementing it).

I might do this in the future, but it's worth noting that I really misnamed this mod - it ought to be "manpower" mod, not "population", in that it focuses primarily on the fighting population of the region (or manpower) rather than the pure head-count of men, women and children.

In that, the focus is primarily on creating a more interesting system to create armies and to be able to simulate the difficulties in recruitment which are left lacking in vanilla, so changes to economy aren't really the focus - at least to begin with. I may implement such modifiers later, but there's more vital things needed first. Certainly, economy will affect growth - I just don't know if the inverse will be true too.

[Willhelm123]

How would that be getting too complex? You would just have something like +1 gold per person in the poor class, +2 gold for people in middle class, and +3 gold per person in high class. A feature like this could hugely improve the depth of the economy in total war. It would force the player to be more willing to end wars if they are losing large numbers of troops. As of right now I would see myself and most players only really start thinking about ending wars when we are finally depleting all our manpower reserves. However if you started making less and less money and being able to have less and less troops then one would be much more cautious about starting and dragging out wars.

Furthermore it would make enemy factions sacking and exterminating your regions have much longer lasting effects.

I don't mean complex in scripting terms, I'm sure Causeless can do it. I just mean we might start having too many extra layers of gameplay, and I'd rather it a bonus or negative than a direct correlation, otherwise recruiting a whole stack might suddenly annihilate your entire economy because you just deleted your income from the manpower. On top of the upkeep cost, it would be really hard to recruit and maintain armies.

[Causeless]

It's also worth noting that it's ultimately a redundant system. Units cost money and upkeep to recruit, which already reduces your money. The only real difference is that within the context of the game we're pretending that the money loss is due to a smaller population instead of upkeep - but it's still ultimately a money loss in the end. I'd really just be adding a new system to the mod so we could all pretend that the game is deeper than before.

[Viking1978]

Hey Causeless, how is it going?

[Causeless]

Hey Causeless, how is it going?

I've been a little burnt out from doing this and work at the same time, so I'd sad to say that in terms of big gameplay additions there hasn't been too much done. There's been a lot of re-factoring and more techy changes to make the mod more stable and work in multiplayer campaigns, but as I'm the only scripter directly working on this manpower mod it means that other areas suffer in development time.

I've got multiplayer functionality working, however, and have been starting a little more with UI work. I have also implemented disbanding feeding into the population pool, and recruiting levies taking population, which were complex and a lot bigger time sink than expected, due to considering multiplayer compatibility.

Otherwise, I have given People of Rome my multiplayer code and am assisting Litharion to port it across to their population mod, as well as helping them with various other issues. I'd expect to see their mod get a full 1.0 release quicker so definitely keep an eye on over there. Sadly due to this Attila mod's affiliation with Ancient Empires, some members of People of Rome have objected to writing any code for us, so I'm needing to rewrite these systems myself.

This Attila population mod will most likely really start shining when AE itself releases, as the mod is being partially designed around the mechanics being introduced with AE. Any properly playable vanilla-compatible release of this mod will probably be a while away, especially as I'm currently having to write a lot of other systems too: maintaining and adding to my scripting toolkit, doing AE campaign scripts, a lot of experimental ideas, and writing the population mod with both AE and vanilla support. I'm also assisting the Hellenika team as they get ready for release.

I apologize for the delay! I'll write an update post here whenever I make significant progress, and release new builds whenever I feel they add something significant gameplay-wise.

[sasquatch32794]

It's also worth noting that it's ultimately a redundant system. Units cost money and upkeep to recruit, which already reduces your money. The only real difference is that within the context of the game we're pretending that the money loss is due to a smaller population instead of upkeep - but it's still ultimately a money loss in the end. I'd really just be adding a new system to the mod so we could all pretend that the game is deeper than before.

I do admit that tying population to income would create a ton of work in terms of balance. However to dismiss it for reasons that the system would be in place "so we could all pretend that the game is deeper than before" I think is completely unfounded.
This system would absolutely increase depth. This would make the economy aspect of the game more about policy and implementation of that policy opposed to the current system which is mainly reliant on buildings.

For one the player could not just wage constant and never-ending warfare as you can currently do. If your money is tied to your people then it only make sense for your income to go down when recruiting soldiers. You just took out the most important contributor in an ancient economy which is males aged from 15 to 50 and put them in the army. Those men are not around to work their labor jobs they may have previously had and contribute to the economy and overall GDP. Furthermore it would make the player feel a real impact on their economy for losing large numbers of solders and having to replace them constantly. This would then factor into the policy of do I want to keep waging war and lose money or try to wind the war down.

Secondly it would allow for economy growth by dictating taxes. If you want to increase total GDP to have higher tax return later then the player would have the option of lowering taxes in times of peace to increase growth. However a decision like this would also mean you could not afford as many troops and have to leave some regions less protected which could result in losing lands in a surprise attack to foreign factions and leave your economy worse off. This is just one example of how more dynamic the economy could become.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

@Causeless

You got a lot of work ahead of you. Maybe just work on the one that is important. This mod is still in development so we have time. Don't worry about a thing. At the pace all of you are working, this mod will be good.

Hard work will pay off.

Good Luck!

[Causeless]

I do admit that tying population to income would create a ton of work in terms of balance. However to dismiss it for reasons that the system would be in place "so we could all pretend that the game is deeper than before" I think is completely unfounded.
This system would absolutely increase depth. This would make the economy aspect of the game more about policy and implementation of that policy opposed to the current system which is mainly reliant on buildings.

For one the player could not just wage constant and never-ending warfare as you can currently do. If your money is tied to your people then it only make sense for your income to go down when recruiting soldiers. You just took out the most important contributor in an ancient economy which is males aged from 15 to 50 and put them in the army. Those men are not around to work their labor jobs they may have previously had and contribute to the economy and overall GDP. Furthermore it would make the player feel a real impact on their economy for losing large numbers of solders and having to replace them constantly. This would then factor into the policy of do I want to keep waging war and lose money or try to wind the war down.

Secondly it would allow for economy growth by dictating taxes. If you want to increase total GDP to have higher tax return later then the player would have the option of lowering taxes in times of peace to increase growth. However a decision like this would also mean you could not afford as many troops and have to leave some regions less protected which could result in losing lands in a surprise attack to foreign factions and leave your economy worse off. This is just one example of how more dynamic the economy could become.

My point is, that it's ultimately just a system to reduce money upon recruitment, which upkeep fulfils already. I mean, I probably will add more dynamics in this area to increase/decrease taxes depending on population - but it'll be something that comes a lot later down the line. There's more vital things that are ahead on the list.

On this subject:

"For one the player could not just wage constant and never-ending warfare as you can currently do"

We're planning to port over War Weariness from Age of Charlemagne, or at least add some similar mechanics. This would decrease public order, which would actually cause population growth to drop anyways.

@Causeless

You got a lot of work ahead of you. Maybe just work on the one that is important. This mod is still in development so we have time. Don't worry about a thing. At the pace all of you are working, this mod will be good.

Hard work will pay off.

Good Luck!

Thank you for the encouragement

[Litharion]

Otherwise, I have given People of Rome my multiplayer code and am assisting Litharion to port it across to their population mod, as well as helping them with various other issues. I'd expect to see their mod get a full 1.0 release quicker so definitely keep an eye on over there. Sadly due to this Attila mod's affiliation with Ancient Empires, some members of People of Rome have objected to writing any code for us, so I'm needing to rewrite these systems myself.

I am thankful and without your help the development of the project would have taken longer to say the least.

You are a great member of the modding community

I am looking forward to work with you on AE :=)

[The Wandering Storyteller]

No problem, but just to make it clear, scripting AI in custom battles is impossible?

[Causeless]

No problem, but just to make it clear, scripting AI in custom battles is impossible?

Yes. However, scripting campaign battles may be possible, to a limited degree.