Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia

[Wallachian]

That is just art man , no realistic backing, maybe include discovered relics or sth..

Dusan Vasilisevic, the artist that has done those sketchings has brought out several books of Serbian medieval troops. Those sketchings come from one of his books and he used archives, monastery paintings and historical records. It is definetly not just art.

[Matthæus]

Matthæus that's is not true, I don't know about Serbia, but in Bulgaria there have been found 14th century armors like bassinets and coat of plates. I have posted pictures of them in the Bulgarian thread.

Well that is very lucky, those finds are very rare and valuable.
I'm unaware of any finds of actual medieval body armor ( cuirass ) in any x-Yugoslavian countries.
Only some mail, and fragments of lamellar and brigantine...

I know for a fact no plate armor was found in Serbia, so famous Osprey drawing of "Serbian knight" https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/520165825691594261/
is based on Orlando's statue from Dubrovnik.
https://peripateticbone.files.wordpr...02/orlando.jpg
Shield decoration is copied from there too.
But since there is written evidence of trade of arms & armor from Dubrovnik to Serbia - its OK to use.

-----------------------

However,
There are several finds of helmets:

For Serbia I know of this 15th century sallet:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/c1...3cefcad5ea.jpg

For Bosnia (which should also be also used for Serbian faction) there are several finds of helmets.
Most notable are five 14th century bascinets from Maglaj fotress.
I posted them before:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15535266

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Now about Dušan Vasiljević's drawings. Knowing the frescoes, and other archaeological finds they are based on, drawings look pretty realistic to me.
Some observations:

- curiass of lamellar or coat of plates are based on frescoes, but more realistically represented
- sabers are based on frescoes
- recognize Schiavonesca swords https://www.academia.edu/496513/Medi...o_Aleksi%C4%87
- one sword is based on real find from Čapljina (Herzegovina) https://arheohercegovina.com/2014/01...c-iz-capljine/
- shield are based on: seals or stećak monuments from Bosnia (http://prijepisi.blogspot.hr/2015/10/truhelka-1891.html)
- great helm is also from seal, and other helmets are from frescoes

[Matthæus]

A great article (in english) about mercenaries under Nemanjić dynasty:
https://www.academia.edu/19707068/Fo...2015_pp._69-89

[keksimir]

I am hoping to see German mercenaries in the 14th century roster. Tzar Dusan had a personal guard made of them as i recall. Also the later Serbian army should draw most of its inspiration from western armor, not Roman looking as there was a shift from a eastern/byzantine army to a more western one later on.

[Matthæus]

I am hoping to see German mercenaries in the 14th century roster. Tzar Dusan had a personal guard made of them as i recall. Also the later Serbian army should draw most of its inspiration from western armor, not Roman looking as there was a shift from a eastern/byzantine army to a more western one later on.

About mercenaries in 13-14th century:
Extensive employment of Foreign mercenaries starts with king Stefan Uroš II Milutin (1282-1321), and is continued by his successors (there were mercenaries before, but details are ubknown). Foreign mercenaries - if paid regularly were loyal to king personally and were reliable tool in dealing with domestic pretenders.

we can divide them into 3 parts:

Mercenaries from nearby countries:

• Hungarians, Bulgarians and Greeks of unknown numbers (13th-14th century). Probably all cavalry.

“Oriental mercenaries”:

• Cumans:
• First mention of Cumans in serbia is in 1241, after their withdrawal from Hungary
• Perhaps they were present at battle of Pelagonia in 1259, where king Uroš I lent support to the Nicean Emperor Michael VIII Paleologus
• Cumans were present in army of prince Stefan Dragutin in 1270’s during revolt against his father Uroš I. There were 2,000 in service as personal guards of king (hranenie) till about 1320.
  

• Tatars & Alans
  
• In 1299. subjects of defeated mongol noble Nogai escape south of Danube and enter service of king Milutin. They helped him to win a war against his brother.

​

• Turks
• in 1310. (Turcopoles - christianised Turks) under Constantine Malik which deserted Byzantine service. 1,000 horseman and 500 infantry. Soon they rebelled when king tried to disband them due to their costly upkeep. They were quickly were destroyed by loyal troops - including Cuman guards.
  

Western Mercenaries:

• Italians, few knights from Italy (Treviso, Sicily) in first half of 14th century
• Catalans in 1330’s-1350’s
• Germans (from Austria and Slovenia) 300 knights and man-at-arms under Pallman rom Letinberch (1330’s-1350’s). Those were Tsar Dusan's personal guard. There were probably more Germans employed in different units.

I think greatest number of western mercenaries at one place was 1,000 cavalry at Velebuzd (Germans and Catalans).


Out of all those I would like to have:
Cuman horsearchers at tier 1
German knights in tier 2 (mounted & dismounted variant).
Some kind of Greek aor cavalry at tier 2

[keksimir]

I am glad you popped up. You have way more info into the matter then i do. I am sure this info helps the developers.

[Matthæus]

I am glad you popped up. You have way more info into the matter then i do. I am sure this info helps the developers.

Thanks.

Not being to read Cyrillic fluently does hold me back a bit.
I need a lot of time to go trough typical 30-ish page scientific abstract.
I feel like a little child who just started school, its ridiculous


PS
I watched first 2 episodes of "Srpski junaci srednjeg veka" its well made documentary

[keksimir]

Its a shame there is no English transaction for the documentary series. It is far superior to the TV series lol.

[keksimir]

https://www.academia.edu/487202/Swor...mels_of_Type_N
https://www.academia.edu/496513/Medi...o_Aleksi%C4%87


Dear all, here is a "essay" of sorts for the different sword types used.
This is not my work but i have found it thanks to a friend.

Thought it might be useful.

[Cometopuli]

How is the revamp of this rooster going?? Is there any progress? (Also can somebody send me pleskavica???)

[keksimir]

Would you like it stuffed with cheese, bacon, spicy sausage... or perhaps all three? Or you want a clean one with pork meat?

[Cometopuli]

All three please

[Matthæus]

How is the revamp of this rooster going?? Is there any progress? (Also can somebody send me pleskavica???)

Well,
I'm helping the team... with textures for various shields...

For example some round shields (probably for archers)... still WIP


Ltd. is the boss here, and will decide where those will be used

[Cometopuli]

Theese Designs are pretty cool.I really like the one with the double headed eagle

[zsimmortal]

Really nice designs Matt. Just want to say that from the looks of the painting that the white dots along the blue line are rivets and not a pattern. Wouldn't be much work to add on your own stuff. Same with the yellow dots on the other one, they look like brass rivets.

[Matthæus]

Really nice designs Matt. Just want to say that from the looks of the painting that the white dots along the blue line are rivets and not a pattern. Wouldn't be much work to add on your own stuff. Same with the yellow dots on the other one, they look like brass rivets.

After second look I agree with you there. Some changes will be made... for example:

(file sent to Ltd.)

For other shield it will mean different normal and specular... so a bit later.

----------------------------

Now another important thing I wanted to talk with you guys:



I would like to clear up the naming of units



Lets quote Ian Heath "Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300" (page 88.):
The nobility provided the nucleus of every Serbian army,
serving as heavy cavalry (the pronijars and bastiniks) and armored infantry (the vlastelcici, or voynuks)...

https://books.google.hr/books?id=L3VKDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=ian+heath+serbia+pronijari&source=bl&ots=aMNsdph_cY&sig=gWzUMeSf0c0E0It-Kaip9JV-EYU&hl=hr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjtvvCY86HdAhVR0RoKHZukCccQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=ian%20heath%20serbia%20pronijari&f=false

What does pronijari and baštinici mean:

Pronija and baština are types of land holdings of different legal status.
Baština (man who has it = baštinik) is a grant of hereditary freehold land. As long as baštinik fulfills the duties, his land could not be taken from him, and he could do with it as he pleases.
Pronija (man who holds it = pronijar) is still theoretically state property given to its holder to use - for exchange for military service. Pronija could not be sold, bought, or given to the church... also it was not automatically hereditary.

All nobles were baštiniks (had their own hereditary land of various size), and same person could also be pronijar (if he is given the state land for use in exchange for service by the King/Tsar/Despot).



To conclude:
Nobility formed heavy cavalry regiments, no matter the legal status of their land.
Thats why I would leave it at "Nobles / Vlastela", and not complicate things.

So I propose:

For heavy cavalry (all 3 should be shock cavalry):
Current situation: --------------> Should be:
Pronija lancers (early) ---------> Serbian Nobles (early) / Vlastela (early)
Serbian Knights (high) --------> Serbian Nobles (high) / Vlastela (high)
Vlastela (late) -----------------> Serbian Nobles (late) / Vlastela (late)


For armored infantry:
instead of Bastiniks (high), Bashtinik Spearmen (late) use terms Vlastelčići (literal translation "lesser nobles") or Vojnici (literal translation "soldiers"). Those are poorer nobility, with had only smaller amount of land.

[Wallachian]

Looking forward to see some badass revamped Serbians!

[keksimir]

A question for the mod makers... Will you be creating custom maps for certain cities? If so i would like to share with you an "idea" i might have about how Belgrade, the Serbian capital to be (its not the capital in the beginning of the Serbian campaign) should look like.
There is a map in regular Attila i believe for nordic/barbarian factions when attacking from the sea. Basically this map puts the main town centre on the very top of a large hill. Belgrade is located between two rivers, and on the very confluence of these two rivers there is the Belgrade fortress (it stands to this day, look it up on google). This Fortress is on a hill on the very confluence of the rivers. If you are making a custom map, perhaps this can serve as a good "pointer" or inspiration.

This is a visual recreation of medieval Belgrade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQLtqnCiAdY

I did not make this video but its not too shabby.

[You_Guess_Who]

Most likely no - We prefer to stick to modifying Attila maps, not making entirely new maps from scratch with its underlying AI guides. Not that its not possible for giving settlements unique maps (its possible); but its not prioritized.

[keksimir]

Appreciate the quick reply. Just an idea, oh well. Keep up the good work, cant wait to get my hands on a campaign for this.
Serbian revamp any time soon?