Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Second Bulgarian Tsardom

[Slepeca]

Sorry for the double post . Anyway ,Ltd i hope you've take some of my ideas into consideration ,like changing the names of the bodyguard units ,and heavy infantry.(look up up the ladder to see my comment for what i am talking about).

[lion8000]

Slepeca why don't you check the Bulgarian army in the 80s and compare them to the now day and those are only 30 years, now imagine before 600.

[Teutonic]

Well ,it's not big of a question for the educated ones ,here ,and elsewhere ,it's just that since childbirth we always saw the medieval bulgarian soldiers with mail/scale armor and round helms (From movies and all of tha jazz)only that ,and now that we actually examine the excavations,trade agreements and frescos of bulgarian churches we see that our armies might'v looked more western in the late 14-th century ,than we thought up to that point ,it's somewhat alien and foreign to us ,for me it is a little bit (because was one of the early people to read about that ,in these forums ,and blogs around the net ) ,but i am actually kinda glad ,because throught the time of watching these films showcase the bulgarian armies like that ,i really hated it .And also ,i don't it has that much russian influence ,rather not examining the artifacts ,trade agreements and so on .

I agree with all of this.
The Soviet influence probably wasn't direct, but it created the environment. It is true that many of the Bulgarian historians were/are really incompetent and/or lazy. If they get basic and obvious stuff hopelessly wrong*, you can't trust them about anything.

* In Bulgarian books/articles that I've read, they often seem to accept the numbers quoted by contemporary sources without critique. This is embarassing for a modern professional historian. E.g. Vukashin and Uglesha with 60 000 men at Chernomen

[lion8000]

Kjertesvein as you asked me about the sabatons of the Boyars in this link you can see images from old Bulgarian books, icons and archeological evidences (I posted this link before):
http://terrazagora.blogspot.bg/2014/08/xiv.html?m=1
As you can see the Boyars have the most modern equipment (mostly Italian, but also Hungarian).
Ltd. this mod is so beautiful, you have done a great job. I am sure that many people will play it. I will definitely get it. Bdw. for some time I was trying to say that the Boyars and the Heavy Infantry should have sabatons instead of boots, but I forgot their name.

[Kjertesvein]

Thank you lion8000, but my Bulgarian is a bit rusty today seeing as I'm Norwegian.

If you could post the pictures and a direct translation of the text which deals with this subject, then I would be much appreciated. I may be mistaken, but I saw some manuscripts from what I believe to be from Hungary in there as well as a few effigies I remember from Germany. I'm a bit confused, so perhaps you can teach me.

Thank you.

~Wille

[lion8000]

Kjertesvein there are some images from other nations because they have the same armor parts like the archeological evidences. I have an problem with sending many pictures at one time because right now I am posting on my smart phone while I change the websites it constantly refresh this one and it dilates all previous images. Well now I will post 2 pictures and you could find out which is Bulgarian by the art style:

The first one is from the Manasses chronicle (all images in this style are from it). The second one is an icon from the Boyan church (some of the icons are from now day Serbia and Greece and because large parts of their territory was part of Bulgaria at that time I don't know are they Bulgarian or not).

[Blak]

guys take a look at some pictures I found in bulgarian kid books..









In some kid books and some student books Bulgarian army is mostly depicted as mercenaries/levies and lots of cumans in early period.. I read most of the info here and I find it quite relevant and accurate. I love your job guys , keep it up and thx for your efforts , cant express my gratitude to the team in words so , you got me <3 :*

[FrozenmenSS]

I really enjoyed looking at the updated units.Colourful as fu ck. I can't see any bad criticism on the subject. Probably give maybe 1-2 gunpowder units because 1 of the forum posts commented that in a fortress near the capital Turnovo back then last 30 years there were found evidences of firearms and bullets from before or in the time of the Ottoman invasion of the balkans in the late 14th, early 15th centuries. The same fortress was the main center for minting coins/money for the state.

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

[AnthoniusII]

Do not confuse Volga Bulgarians with Bulgarians in the Balkans.

Kjertesvein there are some images from other nations because they have the same armor parts like the archeological evidences. I have an problem with sending many pictures at one time because right now I am posting on my smart phone while I change the websites it constantly refresh this one and it dilates all previous images. Well now I will post 2 pictures and you could find out which is Bulgarian by the art style:

The first one is from the Manasses chronicle (all images in this style are from it). The second one is an icon from the Boyan church (some of the icons are from now day Serbia and Greece and because large parts of their territory was part of Bulgaria at that time I don't know are they Bulgarian or not).

I quess you can not read Greek (espesialy those middle ages Greek).
The picture refers to Nikephorus Phokas army ..The shield with the cresent belongs to a Constantinople's Guardsman.
Constantinople kept Byzantium's insignia (aka the cresent) untill its lasts momments.
"Clasisicm" in Middle Ages Roman Empire (the one you call Byzantine) started in the reign of Leon VI and ended with the end of the Macedonian Dynasty.
Terms like "hoplite" and others among them "Byzantines" (those that live inside the city once was known as Byzantion) apeared then. But it was a crime to death penalty not to call the citizens Romans or the state "State of the Romans" (gr: Romaeon Politeia/Ρωμαιων Πολιτεια)...
Fragment from Leonis Imperatoris Tactika of Emperor (Augoust) Leon VI the Wise.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Something in the western world is not known was that "ceasar" was an inferior title. All Roman Emperors after August had "August" as their Title that ment "Emperor".

Kaisar/Kaiser/Tzar/Tsar were inferior titles that Roman Emperors called other Kings or given as gift title by them. No one though was ever uknowleged as August or Basilues exept the Sassanid Shah and after Shan none!

The under line sentence says "our Romaeon Politeia "


The underline sentence says "formations of "ethics" (meens other than christians) and Roman ones).

Emperor Leon VI was Basill 2 grandfather and lived in late 9th century (2nd Emperor of the Macedonian Dynasty).

[lion8000]

AnthoniusII tsar definitely means emperor and it is much higher then king and if the tsar is equal to the Byzantine emperor or not I don't wanna lead this conversation. There is no dispute that those in right are Byzantines but those above and those in left are Bulgarians. For that reason I don't know why are you posting this.
Kjertesvein if you like you could check the Manasses chronicle and the medieval Bulgarian icons.

[Kjertesvein]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I checked out the whole Manasses manuscript, the link you posted, the church artwork, but these do not show miniatures, artwork or remains of sabatons and white armour. I'm a bit confused by your earlier post because the factual statements you made doesn't correspond with the evidence I've seen.

you have to add some high era Boyar units with armor like the Hungarian knights and give some blue color to the other Boyar units(there will be more hing era Boyars right). By the way I mentioned before that the high era Boyars instead of boots their feet were armored like those of the western knights).

~Wille

[lion8000]

That's why those are for the high era and in the miniatures you can see that they have mail armour for the legs.[IMGhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jk5XkGhlk6g/U-6NEExNFdI/AAAAAAAACqw/iR3Or5dcflQ/s1600/post-6-26029-4484.jpg[/IMG] this is found in Bulgaria. I thought that the armor parts for the feet are cold sabatons, what is their name during the XII-XIVth century. During the XVth century they should be Hungarian because there was the stronghold of prince Fruzhin.

[Slepeca]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I checked out the whole Manasses manuscript, the link you posted, the church artwork, but these do not show miniatures, artwork or remains of sabatons and white armour. I'm a bit confused by your earlier post because the factual statements you made doesn't correspond with the evidence I've seen.


~Wille

Can't believe you take this guy seriously ,he is just making fun of the early Frozenmanbg,i even doubt he is bulgarian .

[FrozenmenSS]

Can't believe you take this guy seriously ,he is just making fun of the early Frozenmanbg,i even doubt he is bulgarian .

What?? (я изгледай мултиплеър битките от Рим 2 и тн. качени от Блек кнайт в ютуб и тогава говори че не съм българин.)

Btw I just read that the Bulgars were introduced to the firearms after 1367-8 with the campaign of a Savoian noble working for the Byzantine empire, who conquered 5-8 fortresses , located on the Black Sea. Later I will update the post with the map of that naval expedition.

Edit: I just Found an old Bulgarian Movie from 1982 that I have never heard of it till today.

In this Crusade for the first time in Bulgarian lands appeared firearms, which the Savoy army attacks coastal cities.
This clash is described in the novel by Boyan Bolgar "The Hundred of mishaps ban Batil" in the film "Devil Arms" (1982)



Summary: 14th century. Iovo Batil was a young nobleman. When it comes envoy Bulgarian king bids him to perform a very dangerous mission - to find the secret weapon of the Savoy army. Along with a Byzantine monk Innocent, ... and fisherman, Iovo Batil penetrates the stronghold of Amadeus of Savoy. He frees the boyar Dragota and his daughter Radusha are enclosed here by the Savoy army. In the ensuing chase Dragota was killed and Iovo Batil vows never to abandon his daughter.

Unfortunately - no English Subs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadeu...Count_of_Savoy

[AnthoniusII]

AnthoniusII tsar definitely means emperor and it is much higher then king and if the tsar is equal to the Byzantine emperor or not I don't wanna lead this conversation. There is no dispute that those in right are Byzantines but those above and those in left are Bulgarians. For that reason I don't know why are you posting this.
Kjertesvein if you like you could check the Manasses chronicle and the medieval Bulgarian icons.

I apologise that doupted your sources and knowlege.
Can you please read what the script of the image you post says please? I am willing to learn Bulgarian because my friend NikeBG is one and i want to start learning his language.
Seriusly now...
Tzar/Tsar/Caisar means "emperor" for all barbarians and not for Romans or Sassanids.
The 1st Roman Emperor was not Ceasar but August and that is why all Romans Emperors used his name to define their authority from barbarian "kings" and chieftains". They even made Ceasar title as gift to barbarian allies. The 1st pic is how Roman Emperor Leo VI signs in the end (the underline word in the 1st picture) August(gr:Augustos/Αυγουστος).
The other word "autokrator" that also uses defines the lack of autority over himself by no one other Than God.
Such threads are perfect opportunity for all of us to learn a couple of things and not "live" in our fictional history.

[juanplay]

I thought the whole Augustus and Caesar system fell apart after the fall of the western empire, and that it was only used by the tetrarchy and the Constantinian Dinasty.

[lion8000]

Slepeca какъв ти е проблема.
Kjertesvein I apologize because you write high era Boyars (that means XIII-XIVth century) I was little confused, that's why my information was for that era, don't hate me. Well could someone please tell me what is the name of the sabatons during the XII-XIVth century. I write this before: During XVth century (late era) 1422-1460 Bulgaria was already destroyed and the last left Boyars were rebels that fight agents the ottomans to restore the Bulgarian empire.
AnthoniusII this is great that you want to learn Bulgarian. But the script is on Old Bulgarian which is kind of different from the modern Bulgarian and it has some letters that don't exist anymore. I can read only separate words from it.

[finix]

Искам да видя един форум където българи да не са се хванали за гушите. Обещавам ви, да направя всичко възможно да защитавам и изисквам пред съотборниците ми всяко ваше предложение, стига то да е обосновано и приложимо.
Но искам да не се обиждаме един друг поне тук!

I want to see a forum where bulgarians can't catch each other's throats. I promise to do everything possible to defend and demand to my teammates every yours proposal, as long as it is reasonable and practicable.
But I want do not offend each other at least here, please

[Slepeca]

Говорех за другото момче .

[Slepeca]

Slepeca какъв ти е проблема.
Kjertesvein I apologize because you write high era Boyars (that means XIII-XIVth century) I was little confused, that's why my information was for that era, don't hate me. Well could someone please tell me what is the name of the sabatons during the XII-XIVth century. I write this before: During XVth century (late era) 1422-1460 Bulgaria was already destroyed and the last left Boyars were rebels that fight agents the ottomans to restore the Bulgarian empire.
AnthoniusII this is great that you want to learn Bulgarian. But the script is on Old Bulgarian which is kind of different from the modern Bulgarian and it has some letters that don't exist anymore. I can read only separate words from it.

Не ме разбирай погрешно ,нямам проблем просто понякога с разваления ти английски ми става чудно как някой от хората тук те взимат сериозно . FinixIf you want delete my comments .