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Thread: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

  1. #161

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Im liking these ideas, especially the Darknut abilities.
    Ive seen generals use hero abilities in Divide and Conquer not sure if they have a special script/coding to allow that though.
    Sign the petition to remove the hardcoded limits from M2TW
    https://www.change.org/p/creative-as...t_created=true

  2. #162

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Ähm, could it be that with the newest patch the hero abilities are buggy? Because I tested a few factions and none of their heroes actually could. Even if from the wiki and the data they should be able to.

    EDIT: Hey, finally I can edit . Also a suggestion for a new Stalfos attribute (as I saw in the Templates file that Stalkin and troops still have place):

    Recyclable: Unit has 25% lower Upkeep costs.
    Last edited by Nihilem; April 20, 2016 at 04:41 AM.

  3. #163

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Spoiler for My opinion on 4.0 thus far


    I mean, maybe it's an in-development thing, but the 300/purchase + 150/upkeep for every unit is really crippling. The economy just can't keep up with it and personally I would've preferred the old economic model a lot more.

    As of 4.0, I haven't seen a single faction able to field even a near-full stack, at least in the West. As a Darknut main, I can barely have a single unit stationed in any of my towns, I gotta leave a lot of them garrison-less because it's not feasible to guard them. Worse, one or two near-half-stacks of units nearly drain all of my income all by themselves.

    In the last version this wasn't an issue at all. I could still field a few good armies so long as I managed my money carefully. What changed from that?


    Unless there's something I'm missing here or something.
    Hyrule: Total War
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  4. #164
    UndyingNephalim's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cielo the Pachirisu View Post
    What changed from that?
    Everyone asked me to jack the upkeep up. So I did. Now it's too high.

  5. #165

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Who asked you exactly \<eAe>/? I didn't see 'em! I thought the upkeep was fine <;-;>. It wasn't like you could field multiple full stacks of elites on the taxes from a town or two or something.

    I mean, the AI rarely fields sizable stacks either now. And when they -do-, it's almost impossible to fight them!




    ADDENDUM:
    In my opinion, it is better to be able to field more units than is realistic than being too restricted to be able to do that at all. At least the former is fun.

    All within reason, of course, I'm not saying to throw balance out the window.
    Last edited by Cielo the Pachirisu; April 20, 2016 at 10:34 PM.
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  6. #166
    DarkInterloper's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cielo the Pachirisu View Post
    Spoiler for My opinion on 4.0 thus far


    I mean, maybe it's an in-development thing, but the 300/purchase + 150/upkeep for every unit is really crippling. The economy just can't keep up with it and personally I would've preferred the old economic model a lot more.

    As of 4.0, I haven't seen a single faction able to field even a near-full stack, at least in the West. As a Darknut main, I can barely have a single unit stationed in any of my towns, I gotta leave a lot of them garrison-less because it's not feasible to guard them. Worse, one or two near-half-stacks of units nearly drain all of my income all by themselves.

    In the last version this wasn't an issue at all. I could still field a few good armies so long as I managed my money carefully. What changed from that?


    Unless there's something I'm missing here or something.
    Well, to be fair, the Legion is supposed to field extravagantly expensive armies. Their swords alone take up enough metal to build like three suits of plate armor for a hylian
    Balres Resdak, Balres Nofok.

  7. #167

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Honestly I don't think that metal is that expensive in Hyrule, as all hylian soldiers have heavy armour for example and pretty much all humanoid factions have plenty of armoured units. Either the ores are unbelievably rich in Hyrule or a huge portion of population is devoted to mining at the cost of properly functioning society. That being said, Darknuts have apparently individually fitted personal armours and use swords that are highly ritual by nature and no doubt sold to the Darknuts by the Zuna at maniacally overpriced rates, which means that even with dirt-cheap metal, the Darknuts manage to sink fortunes to their equipment without notable factual gain.

  8. #168

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    I liked this mod for its low upkeep of Units, which made it easier to have large Armies from the Get Go. You can still Steam Roll over other Factions if you know what you are doing, but that high Upkeep and especially the long Recruitement Time (3 Rounds for a simple Tokay Unit?) It is not crippling, the Legion for example does not need large Armies to kill everything on the field. Two or three of their higher Tier Units suffice for that, but it made this mod different from others and i had grown used to this balance.

    Now i can try to conquer others by just throwing low tier units at them. I can still Lolnope the Gorons with my Zora Wardens (I have to say that the Floodmasters were OP as hell though. Now their Range was neutered, they are still expensive and not as useful before. They are just an exapmle for other Units, like the Deku Trees of the Kokiri, which could use more Lifepoints, because they just die too fast to make them worth the investment. 2 Life Points would already help with that.)

  9. #169

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Well the cool thing about the M2:TW mods is that it is really easys to adjust the mod to your personal preferences.

    I for example are currently dont like the strict templates to much, so I am currently working on an "Basic Template + indivudial upgrades" algorithm to calculate costs. Just for personal use. In the end you just change a number in the EDU, just search for an tutorial for unit manipulation.

    Please be aware that changes in the EDU may cause crashes - so please make an Back-Up beforehand.
    (I have copied the whole mod-folder in case this whole balance-team thing will actually be real some day )

  10. #170

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    @Interloper
    True, but even then, balance has to play into that. If we wanna be totally realistic, the amount of armor that could outfit a single unit of Darknut Deities would cost enough to arm an entire IRL medieval army! But they cannot themselves fight an entire army on their own for that cost, nor should they need to.

    @Xavies
    The Legion doesn't absolutely -need- huge amounts of anything, but the option to have something more would be nice. I shouldn't have to drone around fighting with 2 badly-wounded Dishonored supported by 1 or 2 Keaton Highwaymen and a Gerudo Pirate squad for ranged-- and have that tiny group absolutely devour the taxes of almost all of the tax revenue from my ungarrisoned heartland cities which I've been bumrushing economically to just be able to field one more unit!

    And Darknut or not, it should be manageable to field more than two or three stacks with a few good units instead of... some mid-tiers and a few random mercs.


    Balance or not, I still say it's better to have an economy that's a little bit OP rather than an economy that's a little bit limiting.




    Also, @Nihilem I got no experience modding, I have a feeling I'd just ruin my game in a minute :\
    Last edited by Cielo the Pachirisu; April 21, 2016 at 02:49 PM.
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  11. #171
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    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cielo the Pachirisu View Post
    @Interloper
    True, but even then, balance has to play into that. If we wanna be totally realistic, the amount of armor that could outfit a single unit of Darknut Deities would cost enough to arm an entire IRL medieval army! But they cannot themselves fight an entire army on their own for that cost, nor should they need to.

    @Xavies
    The Legion doesn't absolutely -need- huge amounts of anything, but the option to have something more would be nice. I shouldn't have to drone around fighting with 2 badly-wounded Dishonored supported by 1 or 2 Keaton Highwaymen and a Gerudo Pirate squad for ranged-- and have that tiny group absolutely devour the taxes of almost all of the tax revenue from my ungarrisoned heartland cities which I've been bumrushing economically to just be able to field one more unit!

    And Darknut or not, it should be manageable to field more than two or three stacks with a few good units instead of... some mid-tiers and a few random mercs.


    Balance or not, I still say it's better to have an economy that's a little bit OP rather than an economy that's a little bit limiting.




    Also, @Nihilem I got no experience modding, I have a feeling I'd just ruin my game in a minute :\
    True, the economy is quite bad as of now- given the Legion's roman-like military infrastructure they should probably be geting lower garrison upkeep than other factions.
    Balres Resdak, Balres Nofok.

  12. #172
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    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    OK Here is my 50 cents on the current balance:

    More or less all naffunten/grenadier type units need a re-work: their weapon by it's very nature is always one-shot kill, and some of these guys have trouble firing all their ammo, for some reason most of the time only a few of them will bother to throw their grenades at the enemy charging at them. The only exception I've seen are the Dodoblins who are now hilariously overpowered, the only thing holding them back are their low amount of ammo.

    Currently the most overpowered unit in the game, in my opinion, is the Sand Witches: they are one-shotters who's attacks can hit multiple enemies, they are pretty mobile and are fast on the "draw" when attacking at range, they have decent stats which lets them survive a melee fight until backup arrives, and they have a good number of troops in a unit and each of them can attack at range at the same time.

    Flying units may also be a bit OP, they have lower stats then other units but they are hard to hit, their weakness was supposed to be ranged are good against them but their armor value is too high for said ranged units to do anything.

    I feel the above can be fixed quite easily however: increase the attack value of ranged units, just a little and they'll do some pretty decent damage.

    Also I though of a trait for units I thought you might wanna use: Two-Handed, the unit has no shield stat but comes with higher attack, their purpose is to hit the enemy when they are weak and break them, but they struggle in prolonged combat.
    Stabber, Ikanan teen.
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  13. #173

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    There are several problems that you comment on, and they are mostly caused by animations. If I have understood right, the grenade throwers use javelin animations. Now, the problem with javelins is that they never did work that well to begin with, although TATW team created custom javelin animations and if memory serves, released the animations as a modders resource. These custom animations resolved most of the problems with javelin troops and would probably be worth investigating.

    The problem with ranged units in the previous versions was that their damage was higher and thus they slaughtered everything short of fast cavalry. The Kokiri Emerald guardians were the most clear example of this with their huge unit size, high accuracy and high damage. Moreover, the flying units have been problematic since they were released, which I believe is mostly due to their idle animation which makes them fly in erratic circles at high speed. This makes them difficult to hit for the archers. Whenever I do manage to hit them with archers, I don't remember armour being a significant problem. Of course, Argorok from the older versions is another matter altogether.

    2-handed weapons don't actually make defending oneself impossible, and greatsword is surprisingly a great defensive weapon for an experienced user. They can be used in prolonged light combat, but of course don't have the means to project the push that pikemen do. However, there are not too many pikemen or halberdiers in this mod.. Vanilla M2TW was released with overly long animations for the 2-h weapons though. This makes them largely useless due to problems delivering a hit before a faster spearman stunblocks the hit or outright kills the soldier. This is another problem, which could be solved with a modders resource custom 2-h animation package released here on TWC.

  14. #174
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    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Teknokraatti View Post
    There are several problems that you comment on, and they are mostly caused by animations. If I have understood right, the grenade throwers use javelin animations. Now, the problem with javelins is that they never did work that well to begin with, although TATW team created custom javelin animations and if memory serves, released the animations as a modders resource. These custom animations resolved most of the problems with javelin troops and would probably be worth investigating.

    The problem with ranged units in the previous versions was that their damage was higher and thus they slaughtered everything short of fast cavalry. The Kokiri Emerald guardians were the most clear example of this with their huge unit size, high accuracy and high damage. Moreover, the flying units have been problematic since they were released, which I believe is mostly due to their idle animation which makes them fly in erratic circles at high speed. This makes them difficult to hit for the archers. Whenever I do manage to hit them with archers, I don't remember armour being a significant problem. Of course, Argorok from the older versions is another matter altogether.

    2-handed weapons don't actually make defending oneself impossible, and greatsword is surprisingly a great defensive weapon for an experienced user. They can be used in prolonged light combat, but of course don't have the means to project the push that pikemen do. However, there are not too many pikemen or halberdiers in this mod.. Vanilla M2TW was released with overly long animations for the 2-h weapons though. This makes them largely useless due to problems delivering a hit before a faster spearman stunblocks the hit or outright kills the soldier. This is another problem, which could be solved with a modders resource custom 2-h animation package released here on TWC.
    Quote Originally Posted by warl0rd13 View Post
    OK Here is my 50 cents on the current balance:

    More or less all naffunten/grenadier type units need a re-work: their weapon by it's very nature is always one-shot kill, and some of these guys have trouble firing all their ammo, for some reason most of the time only a few of them will bother to throw their grenades at the enemy charging at them. The only exception I've seen are the Dodoblins who are now hilariously overpowered, the only thing holding them back are their low amount of ammo.

    Currently the most overpowered unit in the game, in my opinion, is the Sand Witches: they are one-shotters who's attacks can hit multiple enemies, they are pretty mobile and are fast on the "draw" when attacking at range, they have decent stats which lets them survive a melee fight until backup arrives, and they have a good number of troops in a unit and each of them can attack at range at the same time.

    Flying units may also be a bit OP, they have lower stats then other units but they are hard to hit, their weakness was supposed to be ranged are good against them but their armor value is too high for said ranged units to do anything.

    I feel the above can be fixed quite easily however: increase the attack value of ranged units, just a little and they'll do some pretty decent damage.

    Also I though of a trait for units I thought you might wanna use: Two-Handed, the unit has no shield stat but comes with higher attack, their purpose is to hit the enemy when they are weak and break them, but they struggle in prolonged combat.
    Going by the guide units like wind witches are getting nerfed to be much weaker to melee.
    I think the super deadly mages should basically be a sort of shotgun in your arsenal- extremely lethal with knockback or fire, but limited ammo and short range.
    Balres Resdak, Balres Nofok.

  15. #175

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    If anyone is interested - while trying to ressurect the Stalfos Necromancers I have decided to give my Stalfos Generals an custom abillity. (Because Really troops is rather .... useless). My way of implementing this is rather simple, maybe someone can find a better solution.

    The "work-around" needs one agent Type (merchant, spy, priest etc) that is not used by your Faction to trigger an event that will spawn an named character with the desired custom abillity. Obviously the general comes in mind as we want to "replace" him with the new guys. But I have read that training generals is a little bit buggy (at least it didnt work for me) and deleting them by script will sometimes also delete your named characters ..... which would be bad. But fortunalety there are 12 different agents available (and neph just uses 3-4 per faction).

    So copy your campaign_script.txt to an backUp folder (in case the change will cause crashes etc.) and add afterwards these line somewhere in:

    monitor_event AgentCreated FactionType stalfos and AgentType assassin
    retire_characters stalfos assassin
    spawn_army
    faction stalfos
    character random_name, named character, age 19, x 42, y 115, portrait general_stalfos, battle_model Stalfos_Captain, hero_ability Death_Influence direction S
    unit Scythe Lord_gen exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    end
    end_monitor

    Obviosly you also have to make sure that the stalfos can train assassins. Therefore open export_descr_buildings.txt (make an safety copy) and search for graves and then put the highlited line into it:

    capability
    {
    agent assassin 0 requires factions { stalfos, }
    recruit_pool "Stal Troops" 1 0.5 2 0 requires factions { stalfos, }
    recruit_pool "Stalkin" 1 0.5 2 0 requires factions { stalfos, }
    recruit_pool "Bubbles" 1 0.5 2 0 requires factions { stalfos, }
    recruit_pool "Stalhounds" 0 0.5 2 0 requires factions { stalfos, }
    recruit_pool "ReDeads" 0 0.5 2 0 requires factions { stalfos, }
    .........


    Now whenever you build an assassin this agent will automatically be deleted and an general with the "Death Influence" Abillity will spawn right under Faldoon. Of course you can also choose another abillity or create one for yourself.

    Disadvantages:

    - Generals will only spawn around faldoon
    - Stalfos are not able to use assassins (or princesses ... or whatever agent you dont need)
    - I have absolutly no idea how the ai will handle this change. Use it (for now) only when you want to play the faction for your self



    So, I am back digging for Necromancer Bones.
    Last edited by Nihilem; April 29, 2016 at 06:02 PM.

  16. #176

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    I haven't read every single post on this thread since 4.0 came out, so forgive me, as I don't want to waste anyone's time rehashing old issues, but I think nobody's raised the following points yet (I do so here not as a demand for changes, but simply as observations that are intended to be helpful):

    1) Factions are largely balanced in manual combat, but the automated combat option has problems with balance. Specifically:
    1a) Darknuts perform terribly. (My inference is that the AI underestimates the strength of multi-hitpoint units.)
    1b) Gorons cannot win a battle. (Same reason?)
    1c) Ikana is extremely strong.
    1d) I think Ordona may have problems.

    For humans, one can simply manual-fight battles and this shouldn't matter. But on the larger campaign map, this affects the entire game, because inter-AI combat can become very one-sided; for instance, I've never seen the Gorons expand their empire, even when they have a huge lead by every measurable metric, and Ikana conquers its non-human neighbors very quickly--and they can do it if you leave them so much as a single city. And the once-scary Ordona is now the laughingstock of the South.

    2) Maintenance. High mainentance costs are great (armies got too big in versions 3.x, in my opinion) but now the ratio of recruitment cost to upkeep cost is a little too high, so winning a battle is less "you just destroyed xxxx rupees' worth of troops!" and more "thanks for eliminating xxx rupees' worth of mainentance costs for the enemy!". Perhaps 500 cost / 100 maintenance for regular troops? Just a suggestion.
    2a) The Fairies no longer have free maintenance, it appears. This is great--they're no longer stupendously powerful (although simply reduced maintenance could be interesting)--but their neighbors Lanayru are now freed up to be world-conquering beasts. Reducing the starting population of Lanayru cities (and of nearby rebel cities) may help.
    2b) The maintenance of Zuna Ziggurats (and Sheikah Shadow Cannons) never got adjusted; those things still cost the old 100 rupees/turn, which is now in fact 33% less than that of a normal unit, not 100% more. Leads to some interesting strategies, especially on the former. Doubt it was intentional, though.

    3) Do Ikanian cities grow now? That's fine and all, but the civ is now overpowered. This may be more related to point 1c than anything.

    4) River Zora start with only 1K rupees, not 10K, which I think is probably a typo in some file somewhere. And this isn't a balance thing, but they crash frequently, and I think it's whenever I try to train a unit, though I can't prove it.

    Thanks for your time.

  17. #177

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    The thing with the automatic resolution is that no one knows really how it calculates the losses. I suppose the reason why some factions are just obliterated is that the AI can not use them correctly. Because it threates every faction nearly equal (which currently results in an mindless charge into the enemy). But for some factions a different approach is necessary (zora and labrynna like for example a gun/mageline more. So to balance Ai/AI battles, first an better AI is needed .... but if you like to do that you can join our group ^^

  18. #178

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    Also also also one thing on the topic of the realism of upkeep and recruitment regarding the cost of equipment and training of each individual unit...

    I want to note that most weapons and armor purchases in the medieval times were private, especially in the case of nobility. This changed to a point nearer to the Late Middle Ages but the case was still largely the same. Upkeep would reflect payment of wages, not necessarily the payment for their equipment.

    This would especially come into play with what I was saying a month ago with the Darknuts' society, where nearly every able-bodied man is probably a warrior of some sort already and so would already have their own equipment and probably train on their own.


    That said, this is Hyrule not Medieval Europe, but again, while we're talking about realism...
    Hyrule: Total War
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  19. #179

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    While most people bought their own equipment initially, the leaders of an army had to take care of resupplying. For example, archers can't be relied to produce the arrows while on campaign, and thus must be resupplied continuously. Also, shafts for spears, new shields, leather and textiles for clothing repairs, medical equipment and all such items. The funny thing, however, is that soldiers on the campaign didn't necessarily get any money. Knights payed a part of their taxes by providing a period of free military service, for example 2 weeks per year. Mercenaries and militia often received their pay only after the campaign. The only class of soldiers that received their pay with any regularity were the men-at-arms and other professional soldiers. Supplying the soldiers with food, water and equipment really was the expensive part of the campaign. The wages were often payed in rights to loot the battlefield and nearby population centers.

  20. #180

    Default Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

    All that is true, but even so, my point stands.
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