Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

**Eldren** · January 16, 2016, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by warl0rd13

Only if they pierce their targets defense, so that's something.

Are you sure about this. Because throwing bombs always killed Darknuts in one shot.
Are fire arrows an incendiary attack? If they are. Then your right about Fire arrows at least.
But for all bombs and most magic attacks it's insta kill. ..........

I think if you have an attack that has the incendiary attribute Plus the area attack attribute. The attack becomes an insta Kill attack if it hits.
But with out the area attack attribute. It doesn't insta Kill all things it hits.
With the Body piercing attribute. Added to the incendiary attribute. I don't think it causes insta Kill. Look at the direct fire mage types for example.
On the other hand. Scythe Lords have all 3 attributes. And don't seem to do insta Kill.

**warl0rd13** · January 16, 2016, 07:22 PM

I could be wrong, I can't play the game at the moment and I'm not certain about it's current mechanics, but I think I distantly remember seeing Darknuts survive Twili Sol Nurses grenades, but flamethrowers always are instant kill.

Something to keep in mind is that it's possible that Neph changed how magic works, I wanna say that magic is supposed to be instant kill in general, but that's not how it worked before as I clearly remember seeing my Aquamancers barely kill anyone.

**Eldren** · January 16, 2016, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by JoonasTo

This is what Hylians look like after the first pass. The ironclads have issues, they only have the sword as an offhand and they only have a short spear. What is up with that? Why no halberds? Anyway, that makes them pretty bad so I buffed their armour more than I originally wanted to but they still kinda suck. And they will keep on sucking if they don't get a proper weapon.

All unit upkeep is 1/3rd of the unit cost. Mounted unit is simply double the cost of the footed version. Equipment(mainly armour) and training is factored into cost and training time is dependent on training level of the unit+1 more turn for horses.

You know. I may like this version your making probably better than the current Version of unit stats. Let we try it out when it's test able.

O and about this.

Originally Posted by VictorAYorke

My thoughts on mages are to have a few rough groups, based on their attack type and ultimate tactical use:
==Direct-Fire (Zora Mages, Wizzrobe Electromancers etc), magic units with little/no arcing to their projectiles and are incapable of overhead attacks., but their shots pass through multiple enemies. Best used to soften up the enemy lines before the main forces meet.
==Massed Damage (Twili Sorceresses, Wizzrobe Pyromancers, Gerudo Wind Witches etc), magic units who can fire directly or indirectly and who are there to rack up as many enemy casualties as possible. Short range to counter their offensive potential. Put these guys on a wall or behind elite heavy inf, and you may have broken the game.
==Light Artillery (half the Fairy roster), long-range high-damage units with a modest AoE effect. Best used to counter enemy artillery, snipe at generals, cause morale damage or to harass a cautious enemy.
==Suppression (Wizzrobe Aquamancers, possibly also Geomancers, I suspect Zora Floodmasters should act as these too), magic units with range and a wide AoE attack, but little damage. They don't really cause casualties, but they can knock an entire army on their backsides. Best used to disrupt charges, limit enemy manoeuvrability and soften up an infantry group for a friendly charge.

These are just my headcanon based on the old unit stats, although I really want to see suppression-based mages make an appearance (just think of the tactics they open up!)

By all means do whatever you will with mages, but I strongly advise you make them into very niche units, using missile attacks that would make no sense on a non-magic unit but that open up a load of tactics for their faction. (also that add flavor, but yeah)

Can you take these things in to account when making the stats for mages. I would say treat it similar to how you are doing units now. Like the Gear/armer/weapons/training etc etc. So what ever you would factor in for the different types of magic and how they are used etc etc.

**Eldren** · January 16, 2016, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by warl0rd13

I could be wrong, I can't play the game at the moment and I'm not certain about it's current mechanics, but I think I distantly remember seeing Darknuts survive Twili Sol Nurses grenades, but flamethrowers always are instant kill.

Something to keep in mind is that it's possible that Neph changed how magic works, I wanna say that magic is supposed to be instant kill in general, but that's not how it worked before as I clearly remember seeing my Aquamancers barely kill anyone.

I agree about the Aquamancers and flamethrowers. Not sure about Twili Sol Nurses grenades. I never used them against Darknuts before, for some reason.

Edit:
Wait.

I remember Airomancers insta killing in both the old and new versions.
What's with that? They aren't incendiary attacks last I know.

Maybe their is a different factor to consider.

**JoonasTo** · January 17, 2016, 02:53 PM

I've finished with the Gerudo and running some final adjustment tests on them atm.

Marauder

Scimitar +2,5 att
No offhand weapon/two handed bonus 1,0 att
Well trained +2,0 att
Total attack ~6

No shield/offhand weapon + 0 shield
poor armour +2 armour
well trained +4 defense
total defense 6

Unit mass 1,1

6-6 with combat bonus in desert, fast moving(1,2) and high stamina due to gerudo bonus/youth, excellent for hunting down fleeing enemies or doing flanked attacks
2 turns to recruit, 300

glaive grunt

glaive 2,0, ap
exceptional skill 2,5
twohanded 1,0
6

poor armour 2
exceptional skill 5
no shield 0
7

6-7 spear, spear bonus 8, combat bonus in desert, fast moving(1,2), high stamina
3, 400, free upkeep in town(guard)

mass 1.0

Dune archers

missile att
composite bow? 2,0, long range
basic training 1,5
4

melee att
basic training 1,5
missile -2
unarmed 0
0~1

clothes 1 armour
basic training 3
missile -2
no shield 0
2

4-2, combat bonus in desert, fast moving(1,2) long range hide anywhere, low morale
1, 200, always

mass, 0.8

Gerudadorf

katar 2,0, ap
elite 3,5
6

clothes 1
elite 7
offhand katar 1 shield
9

6-9 ap, combat bonus in desert, fast moving(1,4), hide anywhere, high morale, very high stamina
3, 600, always

mass 1.0

Vagrudanon

scimitar 2,5
mounted -1
veteran 3,0
no offhand 1,0
6

good armour 4
mounted -1
veteran 6
no shield 0
9

6-9, fast moving 1,4, very hardy, combat bonus desert, high morale
4, 900, always

mass 2

dune runner

missile att
composiote bow 2,0 long range
excellent training 2,5
mounted -1
4

melee att
excellent training 2,5
mounted -1
missile -2
unarmed 0
o ~1

poor armour 2
excellent training 5
mounted -1
no shield 0
6

4-6, fast moving 1,2, hardy, combat bonus desert,
4, 700, always

mass 2

tomb guard

kopesh 3,0
veteran 3,0
6

mirror shield 9
good armour 4
veteran 6
19

6-19, fast moving 1,2, combat bonus desert, shield wall, high morale
3, 750, always

mass 1.2

ice archers

missile attack
veteran 3,0
shortbow 1,0
ice arrow 6,0 ap, short range, launching
10

melee
veteran 3,0
missile -2
unarmed 0
1

clothes 1
veteran 6
missile -2
no shield 0
5

10-5, fast moving 1,2, combat bonus desert, ap, short range
3, 550, always

mass 0.8

wind witches

missile magic

melee unarmed 0
mage -3
hero 4,0
1

clothes 1
no shield 0
hero 8
mage -3
small 1
7

magic - 7, combat bonus desert +2, mage, small, excellent morale
3,

mass 0.6(mage+small)

iron knuckles

two handed axe 3,5 ap
two handed bonus 1,0
huge 1,0 area, powerful charge
veteran 3,0
9

full plate 10
veteran 6
no shield 0
huge -1
15

9-15, ap, area, animated +1hp, no morale, very high stamina, power charge
3, 1000, always

If anyone is interested, I'll add the files here if you wish to test it. Just dump them into mods/Hyrule/data and remember to save a copy of the original files somewhere safe so you can return to the normal.

EDIT: I'll probably have to up the costs for the wind witches, they are ridiculously good, even if they cannot shoot over allies.

Oh and Gerudo army seems stronger on the field than on paper. They're actually really good late game because of the multitude of units they have. A couple tomb guardians + iron knuckle with a few glaive grunts make for a really potent front line, add sand snipers behind, ice archers and wind witches on the flanks protected by gerudadorfs(barrage of AP ammo followed by a surprise attack is really strong, even vs lategame high morale hylians). Everything protected by a vagrudanon + plus two dune runners to keep the flanks clean and enemy constantly flanked. Really, really good unit mix there. Excellent job Neph. It's a perfect faction with no useless units.

Hylians lack lategame ranged units. Badly. Their infantry is top notch but brute force alone can't carry you to victory.
I should probably employ some form of: "let's just sit behind our trebuchets and wait till they come to crossbow range to die"-method for them instead of proper combined arms.

**warl0rd13** · January 17, 2016, 05:19 PM

Looks pretty good, if there are any units you aren't quite sure what to do with let us know.

Also here's what every faction was supposed to be like on paper, just for reference;

KOH: Generally these guys are supposed to be the most like a Northern European faction from vanilla, they are supposed to have an answer to almost anything but not stand out too much in any area.

Gerudo: Lords and masters of archers and skirmishers with some nice, but not incredible cav. Most infantry are good and fast, but lightly armored, with the exception of the Iron Knuckles, who are powerful but reallllly slow.

Gorons: Elitist, but lacking in numbers and ranged, but their arty is really good. So Dorfs, basically.

Zora: Ugh, I will defend the old stats of everyone EXCEPT these guys. They are supposed to have the best morale and be mage focused, but with good enough cav and infantry to back them up.

Kokiri: Swarms and skirm, unprofessional but good at hiding and with the energy of youth, led by very powerful Trees.

Ghoma: Swarming with an good roster of cav, I also think they are supposed to have really good morale unless their general dies, hive mind and all that.

Ordona: BEST CAV. Some also brave infantry and archers, but ultimately they are a nation of farmers more accustomed to a day in the fields harvesting and ranching rather than warfare.

Lanaryu: VIVA LA REVOLUTION! An army of volunteers and hired soldiers, they are supposed to be quick learners who gain experience faster, but I don't know if that's possible. Most of them prefer their civie clothing and are not well armored, but the more elite troops wear Coramold, which while not as though as steel is a lot lighter.

Deku: Almost every Scrub can shoot seeds, they don't do the most damage but have enough numbers to make sure it hurts, they can hide very well but are fragile and have the worst morale in game.

Stalfos: Undead, they will never rout, have nice numbers but they are ultimately reanimated corpses and can be dispatched quite easily, with the exception being the elites.

Moblins: Orcs and Goblins, best at charging but unorganized.

Sheikah: Ninjas, can hide anywhere, really low numbers but great at fighting and fast, they can also bring in some Soldiers of Aghanim to play front line.

Darknuts: The best melee fighters and the most heavily armored, so heavily armored that all but their Initiates cannot run, they have low numbers and their answer to enemy missile and cav is their Fokka Knights, lower in numbers than other factions but move almost as fast as cav, their heavily armed but low in number Mazura, and any mercs they take with them.

Lizalfos: These guys believe fighting is a way to show respect, and they have a lot of respect for the people around them, move very quickly, most prefer their natural scales over armor, while it's definitely better than the flesh of most and probably even better than leather armor it's still not steel. Being cold blooded they are not fond of colder areas.

Labrynna: Their pride is in their high tier units, their other units are mostly there to fill in the gaps and play cannon fodder. Generally suck at melee.

Fairies: They have two extremes; insanely weak, very numerous and cheap or expensive and power but lacking in numbers. Are fans of lazars.

Ikana: The most experienced guys around, having been fighting for thousands of years and rising again if they fall, but expensive and difficult to replace, they are undead and don't care about any terrain they are on or what weather it is but are also distrustful of each other.

FOT: Aliens, they frighten their enemies with their very appearance, but they are not used to Hyrules strange environment and tire more easily, the only exception being the Repentents. They also glow in the dark so it takes some effort to hide them, excepting the Bonemold Monks, who are descended from Sheikah and have somehow found a way around this.

Wizzrobe: Pretty obvious, squishy wizards with only two melee units, one of whom sucks and is really only a meatshield and the other has bath robes for protection. Their bane is cavalry.

River Zora: The raiders and barbarians, with all the benefits and downsides, also not a fan of the cold.

**VictorAYorke** · January 17, 2016, 06:26 PM

@Warlord
Zora were actually more balanced than you'd think, with the exception of the late addition of Domain Supremes and Floodmasters. High-morale but unexceptional melee infantry fight in close formation to pin the enemy, while powerful but ultimately vulnerable mages fire into the crowd. Lightweight Octorok cavalry guard the wings.

Zora units have middling attack, slightly below par defence (including their ranged, guess what that means for enemy cav) and the aforementioned morale.
Notably they have no light melee infantry whatsoever - only one unshielded spear unit (Infantry), one basic shock infantry unit (Blademasters), one advanced shock infantry unit (Shock Troopers), and whatever use you find for Domain Supremes (Neph had them as advanced shock infantry +1, which i'm not sure was necessary).
Historically their mages have been one long-range, piercing gunpowder style unit (Mages) and one midrange, fire arrow style unit (Sapphire Wardens). Floodmasters are much vilified for being OP, but they also do the jobs of both of these units at least as well as they do it themselves. Perhaps a conceptual rethink is required more than a rebalance?
There's one main cavalry unit worth paying close attention to for compaign purposes - Octorok Riders I remember being good in a charge but lacking the staying power of even other light cav, best suited to disrupting skirmishers or hammering at a target the infantry have pinned. BigOctos I confess I never really found a use for.

In other news, I have two requests for the Lizalfos. First, please differentiate Finders and River-runners. Even in the old balance they were very nearly the same stats dropped onto adjacent slots in their tech tree. Second, Bird-Catchers have always been pretty low-damage and short range for their status as the faction's sole mass ranged unit. Is there anything you can do with them? The flavour text and models both suggest bladed bows to help them out in melee, but the other ranged unit (Iguanalfos, small squad size and Volvagian-style AoE attack) is also a melee specialist. Any thoughts?

A note for Ordona - in the old balance, Goat Lords were a force to be feared, and the glorious payoff for the Ordonian player for putting up with all those militia infantry for so long. I never spent much time as the Province, but fellow forumite Mattwensley does and he has long been a horror to play in custom battles. I respect whatever decision you come to, but I humbly ask, please don't nerf them...

**UndyingNephalim** · January 18, 2016, 02:24 AM

Well, I'll look into all the stat changes people have made in a bit. I think I've just about settled on the attributes for all the Hylian and Gerudo units. I forgot to mention it when I made this thread for some reason, but I wanted each unit to be limited to just three attributes each (except for whatever attribute a faction get's overall, such as Zora units automatically being aquatic, Stalfos having no fear, etc)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

A few notes, I think there are several more attributes I'm adding

- Police: Definitely going to include this in the game. This unit essentially gets its full unit count when dealing with settlement unrest.
- Numerous: This unit has a slightly higher troop count from its template. I'm not sure what percentage, probably something not too crazy like a 10% increase? Can help some factions deal with Kokiri and Gohma's larger numbers.
- Reserves: This unit can retrain and replenish losses faster.
- Easily Trained: Unit will can be trained one turn faster then the train time of its template (which in itself is yet to be finalized)
- Heavy Siege: This siege weapon is basically geared more towards taking down gates and is inaccurate against troops.
- Extra ammo: Self explanatory, this unit has more ammo than its template.

Additionally, I'm tweaking the Exceptionally Trained attribute to also make the unit take a turn longer to create than its template time.

**JoonasTo** · January 18, 2016, 02:48 AM

Police for wind witches doesn't seem that good since their unit count is low. It helps but probably not worth it.

Oh and AP + High shield makes for a pretty damn good unit. You can only bypass shield by flanking from the rear or the right and there is no shield breaking ability in game so the unit doesn't have a direct counter in the game either. Magic works, because magic is broken ofc

Not a huge issue since tomb guardians are pretty limited in number but just something to note.

Can you make reserves work without affecting training numbers? Because that would be cool as hell.

I'd propose infantry and archers 2, cavalry and mages 3 turns for recruitment time. That way fast training still applies to everyone, cavalry and mages are more powerfull than inf/archers so it helps to balance that a bit.

**VictorAYorke** · January 18, 2016, 03:22 AM

Put a couple of hours into the Zora just recently, and I have these findings:

--With no mid or long range missile units, the Dominion has to be pretty aggressive in tactical battles.
--New model for Blademasters has a conventional sabre. Should we update the 'double-sided sword' out of their flavour text?

--Ranged small Fairies (the green Wisps especially) have extremely high numbers and an only slightly modified missile (mage) template. They are currently fighting well above their pay grade, and are a lot scarier unchecked than Humanoid Manifests or even Korrigans.
--That said, not sure if this is a common situation but Fairies desperately need some attainable anti-cavalry. I drew up a mobile reserve that never got bigger than two Octorok cav and one Blademasters, reinforced with a new Octo every couple turns to replace losses, and I now own Tarm Ruins.

**JoonasTo** · January 18, 2016, 05:28 AM

Spoiler for goron:

Had to grow fire warrior/sumo unit size to 20 due to playing on huge and improper unit scaling making it difficult to balance.
Bomb throwers are just amazing, they wipe out half the hyrulean knights from the unit in one volley but can't hit

if units are fighting in battle already. Got to love medieval 2 targeting...

EDIT:

Spoiler for zora:

mages, GAH. everything depends on their firing arcs/lines. You can waste a unit in one volley with pretty much any of them or miss pretty much all shots from a different position. Floodmasters SEEM to be the most consistent. Sapphire wardens the most fickle but what can you do?

Also yeah, neph, the sparkpikes are very weird atm. Their charge is really good due to bigoctos but they have no fighting power. Their javelins sucks since their lethality is like .1 or something weird.

**Eldren** · January 18, 2016, 01:28 PM

@ Neph and JoonasTo.

Do bicocto sparkpikes have fire on the move? Should they have a shooting circle?
I haven't played with or against a bicocto sparkpikes. But from what JoonasTo said about them.
They sound like they suffer the same fate as other hybrid units. Like the Cyclops Ku, Iguanalfos, Aeralfos, and Garo Ninja. Luckily some hybrid units have enough troops to make them worth it normily. Like the Outrunners and Bird Catchers. But all Spear throwing units seem to be UP compared to other ranged units. And could use a buff in some way. Although I need to test this more in the new version to see if it's still true.

**JoonasTo** · January 18, 2016, 01:35 PM

Yeah, they fire on the move. Shooting circle isn't that usefull, it tires units out and spaces the shots out instead of volleys. Also messes with skirmishing sometimes.
Better just stay grouped, fire volleys and only move when necessary, saves the unit from fatigue. Plus the octos can charge all missile units/mages shooting at them, their charge is pretty good.

Spoiler for kokiri:

Again, large variation in unit size makes them pretty tough case but I'm more or less confident with this.
Had to boost the HP for deku trees upto 4 or they were like paper in any melee dying to anything really.

Such a blast to play them though! You get wolfos, fire arrows, hiding, deku trees...So. Many. Morale. Debuffs.
And since Kokiri aren't the toughest morale faction either a controlled break against or with them isn't that easy. It's a lot of fun though.

**Eldren** · January 18, 2016, 04:07 PM

So Neph. I don't know what you did. But since the Hot-fix The Cyclops Ku, Outrunners, and Iguanalfos. Have all been viable and use full.

I also noticed that the Cyclops Ku, and Iguanalfos don't do insta kill with their ranged attack.

Are they a magic attack or not?

I also say it's quite satisfying to see all those Fireballs, Javs and Arrows Coming down on my enemy.
When I use Cyclops Ku, Outrunners, Iguanalfos and Bird Catchers in a custom battle.

On the other hand. Seeing so many of my units shots hitting the enemies front lines as if they where in a blizzard. And yet so few of them die. It's very disappointing.

On top of that they where all Gerudo Marauders. If they were some kind of armored units it would make sense. And be more appealing
For crying out loud. Am I shooting at Darknuts who have an illusion spell cast on them?

Stooped Aghanim.

On the other hand. It is nice to see Jav throwing units and fire ball spitters, not taking turns to see who can peg the enemy. As if they were on a fire range.

This was the case in the old version.

**Eldren** · January 18, 2016, 05:04 PM

So I have a bone to pick with some of the units.

I have found at this time, that there are at least 3 units that used to be ranged units.
1) Dodongos
2) Conjures
3) Battle Chariots

Now beside me wanting them to be ranged again. What I have against them is that HTW Whether in game or in Code files. Says they are still ranged units.

This has been the case for the Dodongos for many years now.

While the Conjures and Battle Chariots are a new change that is only in HTW 4.0.

Besides those 3. I haven't tried out all the units in game to see their changes yet.

--
Here Neph. May many more problems be Ironed out.

**UndyingNephalim** · January 18, 2016, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by JoonasTo

Can you make reserves work without affecting training numbers? Because that would be cool as hell.

I'm still trying to figure out how replenishing unit numbers is handled. It seems inconsistent at the moment. This attribute might end up being scrapped if I cant find a way to control it outside of general's traits.

Originally Posted by JoonasTo

Police for wind witches doesn't seem that good since their unit count is low. It helps but probably not worth it.

I'd like to give them something other than police, maybe exceptionally trained? Exceptionally trained might actually help stop the AI from spamming some of the more OP mage units like Floodmasters. I ended up giving them police and inspire because I couldn't really think of something else fitting for them.

Originally Posted by VictorAYorke

--New model for Blademasters has a conventional sabre. Should we update the 'double-sided sword' out of their flavour text?

Yeah that should be removed from the text.

Originally Posted by VictorAYorke

--Ranged small Fairies (the green Wisps especially) have extremely high numbers and an only slightly modified missile (mage) template. They are currently fighting well above their pay grade, and are a lot scarier unchecked than Humanoid Manifests or even Korrigans.
--That said, not sure if this is a common situation but Fairies desperately need some attainable anti-cavalry. I drew up a mobile reserve that never got bigger than two Octorok cav and one Blademasters, reinforced with a new Octo every couple turns to replace losses, and I now own Tarm Ruins.

The Fairy roster is pretty much getting nuked and redone from scratch when I get around to them (the Green Fairies will disappear as a unit), so I've only done some basic and rudimentary stuff with them.

Originally Posted by JoonasTo

Got to love medieval 2 targeting..

It's both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because it's honestly one of the most realistic combat engines in an RTS ever, there are so many variables and things taken into account to determine what exactly a unit does, how it deals damage, and how damage is dealt. It's a curse because almost all of it seems to have some element of randomness to it. Randomness is a kiss of death for balance in any game. See: Super Smash Bros.

Originally Posted by JoonasTo

Sapphire wardens the most fickle but what can you do

Sapphire Wardens probably are more useful in the long term to damage morale than immediately frying off enemy units. Since thier blue fire creates a morale draining aura around the impact zone, if they launch fire at an enemy engaged in melee they are more likely to break and run than not.

Originally Posted by JoonasTo

Also yeah, neph, the sparkpikes are very weird atm. Their charge is really good due to bigoctos but they have no fighting power. Their javelins sucks since their lethality is like .1 or something weird.

Hmmm, sparkpikes should fry whatever unit they hit. I might have accidentally given them a normal javelin.

Originally Posted by Eldren

I also noticed that the Cyclops Ku, and Iguanalfos don't do insta kill with their ranged attack.

They are not magic, but they are fire which should ignite an enemy they hit. Strange as I'm pretty sure both units actually use the default Fire Arrow projectile from Medieval 2.

**Teknokraatti** · January 18, 2016, 05:17 PM

@JoonasTo I would like to offer some thoughts about your weight calculations, especially as I happen to own some relevant equipment (chainmail haubergeon, a couple of training swords, shield, spear, a helmet, gauntlets, tabard, segments of lamellar armour that sort of stuff) and as I also take great interest in medieval martial arts. First off and as my most important point; physical weight is a suboptimal evaluation tool of unit weight, and there are some major reasons for that.

Armour has little significance in melee and charge if the bearer doesn't know how to use it properly. A skilled fighter will benefit from the same amount of armour greatly more than unskilled one, and the effective amount of protection will be the same for the more skilled warrior even with much less actual armour. Additionally small frame is somewhat of a virtue with armour, as the weight decreases. As the armour also makes running somewhat more cumbersome (Yet not at all slower, unless in full sprint which you won't do on medieval battlefield), the momentum bonus from the weight is largely negated.
However, the amount of protection that armour provides translates very poorly to weight. Great example is that plate armour offers vastly superior protection than chainmail, yet is significantly lighter. Likewise, a gambesone or leather armour, while still light armour, still weighs several kgs.

Now, I would like to provide some simple examples of what elements of my armour and historical armour weigh, as this is usually misunderstood. My current set as a teutonic order heavy spearman consists of chainmail 16kg (Extremely heavy, made using some VERY unhistorical techniques, especially as it is a haubergeon), shield 4kg (extremely light due to full-metal construction), helmet 3kg (Greathelm), spear 4kg, sword 1kg, gauntlets 1kg plus some other needed materials. The combined weight of protective equipment is thus 24kgs, extremely heavy and as heavy as it ever gets. Also, combat weight is a ludicrous 29kgs
More sensible and yet very effective armour would have protective weight of (7kg maille +6kg shield +2kg kettlehelm)= 15 kgs protective weight and around 18kg combat weight. For the record, modern armies have their soldiers carry around 25kg materials, so actually medieval troopers had less equipment of them.

The germans, as one would suspect with their expertise in engineering, were quite the masters in armour crafting. A man-at-arms with german-gothic or maximilian full plate with a greatsword could have a combat weight of only some 12kgs and be among the lightest while having also the best armour of all the soldiers on the battlefield, therefore being able to move around very quickly and endure quite long engagements.

Weights for some common weapons: war dagger 0,5kg, arming sword around 0,9kg, longsword usually 1,2-1,5kg, greatsword 2-3kg and finally spears 3-7kg.

There's the critique and number dropping. Now, to suggestions. When giving weight to humanoid soldiers, the most important thing is to check if they are line infantry (IE frontline brawlers, not light infantry) and check whether they have any practical armour. Then check what kind of training they have, which is the most important singe characteristic. For example mob of moblins and Ordona lumberjacks both have some armour and are line infantry. Lumberjacks, however, are very green as soldiers and can't exploit the benefits as well as the moblins can, who despite not being that clever have much more experience in fighting. Therefore they should have greater unit weight. And again, Hylian heavy infantry is mostly professional and thus can effectively abuse their already good armour, which should give them higher weight than that of the moblins, despite them being physically somewhat bigger.

So. A bit of a textwall of impeding doom, but I hope it will offer some ideas and most importantly be educative and perhaps even interesting.

**UndyingNephalim** · January 18, 2016, 06:03 PM

Some more finalized attributes for the Gorons, Zora, Kokiri, Gohma, Lanayru Province, and Wizzrobe:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Another attribute addition:
- Recruit Anywhere: Can be trained slower in any settlement without required building

**Eldren** · January 18, 2016, 08:16 PM

I like what you have done so far Neph. It looks good on paper. But I would have to test it. To see if there is any thing wrong or if there is some thing I don't like about it.

Now about other Feed back.
Agitha is still labeled as a ranged unit.

And there are several artillery units for different factions. That have their fire shot or common shot with Green Fire.....

It makes sense for the Stalfos. Not sure about the other races.

**tedster1995** · January 19, 2016, 04:02 AM

Would it not make sense, in the free form at least, for Agithas bodyguard to be Hive Keepers? That way it's like Historia and she doesn't become that weird exorcist looking child

, also what happened to the emerald Gohma unit? Viroid gohma I think it was called

Thread: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

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