Originally Posted by
UndyingNephalim
Some things I've noticed after messing around:
- Troop numbers seem to have an insanely positive effect, even if their stats are weaker. This doesn't seem to be because a higher number of troops is inherently better, but rather because more troop numbers increases the odds exponentially of soldiers being able to surround and attack from multiple sides, which seems to be the insanely-massive-hugest-most-important-all-determining factor on who wins a melee fight.
- Unsurprisingly with this knowledge, messing with the unit's rank and file formation can also alter the way a unit performs to an insane degree. A really wide single line of soldiers will dominate as opposed to the exact same unit with the exact same stats in a much smaller, compact 3 row formation. This is most likely because the long line of troops much more easily surrounds their target and has to circle around back after a charge. With this in mind it's absolutely necessary to make the formation of swarm factions (such as the Gohma and Kokiri) smaller in size with more rows. 200 Gohma in 2 rows absolutely massacred 100 Gerudo in 2 rows. However, upon changing 200 Gohma to be in a formation of 4 rows managed to be about equal match for 100 Gerudo in 2 rows. I simply cannot stress enough just how massively critical troop locations relative to their targets are in a melee. It really is the #1 factor to determining what wins a melee fight, regardless of all other stats. It seems like a single soldier with 62 attack and armor can be defeated by just 4-8 troops with 1 of every stat.
- Using two units of equal stats as a base, increasing armor seems to have a much more noticeable effect as opposed to increasing damage. A unit with 1 more armor seems to be able to do about 50% more damage to a unit's soldier numbers (two groups of 50 soldiers, the one with higher armor killed 2 soldiers for every 1), where's increasing 1 attack only improves their performance by about 25% (the death count approximately was 1.5 soldiers killed for the unit with 1 increased attack for every 1 soldier killed for the non altered unit). At the moment I'm tempted to consider armor a much more valuable stat as opposed to damage... except that..
- Increased troop numbers seem to have the inverse effect, so a group of 60 soldiers with +1 attack will absolutely massacre a group of 50 soldiers with +1 armor. Again I do not think this is because statistically they are better, it's because those 10 extra troops creep around to the sides of the opposing unit and can attack from multiple sides. Positioning trumps all.
- Custom animations can have all sorts of huge effects on how a unit performs and for the most part needs to be done on a unit by unit basis. It seems larger units unsurprisingly perform better than smaller sized units of equal numbers. Again this might not be because their size makes them better, but rather they size allows them to (wait for it....) step around and surround an enemy from multiple sides easier.
- Unit weight has a massive, massive impact on charge damage. In a battle of 50 vs 50 soldiers, one with higher weight did about 10% more damage in the first few seconds of the melee (probably from the charge itself). The weight seems to have no effect after the charge however. I performed the test again several times but had the unit with more weight not charge at all as the enemy came into melee, and the end results were much more equal. As such units with higher weight probably need minor nerfs in numbers, but not too significant a deduction.
So here's my rank of factors in determining the performance of a unit:
#1 Ability to surround an enemy in melee
Can a unit surround an enemy unit more easily? Can be nerfed by reducing soldier numbers, adding more rows to a unit formation
#2 Unit's Physical/Collision Size
This is tied to #1, because the larger a unit is the more easily to can surround an enemy.
#3 Unit's Armor Value
If the unit has higher armor but equal numbers, it will almost always win.
#4 Unit's Damage Value
If the unit has higher Damage but equal numbers, it will almost always win. The strength of this is not as great has having higher armor however.
#5 Unit Mass
Only seems to effect charge damage, which can initially give a unit a huge edge in the first few seconds of a melee and set off a chain reaction of your superior numbers being able to surround what enemies survive.
So here's my rough analysis on what certain inhuman races need changed to stack against human races of equal value:
Medium sized Gorons:
37 troops for every 50 humanoid
2 row formation
Both a large physical size and higher weight necessitate the mild nerf in troop count, however the formation rows need to be smaller or else they can be surrounded too easily.
Large Gorons, Darknuts:
16 troops for every 50 humanoid
3 row formation
2 HP as opposed to 1
1 increase for all armor stats
Both a large physical size and higher weight necessitate the nerf in troop count. They need to be given an additional hitpoint however, as even in a single row most units are able to surround these guys
Moblin:
32 troops for every 50 humanoid
3 row formation
The unit's slightly larger physical size and weight necessitates this more mild nerf in troop count.
Kokiri, Fairy, Deku Scrubs:
70 troops for every 50 humanoid
4 row formation
decrease all attack and defense stats by 1
The higher troop count necessitates a tighter formation with more rows so that these races can not so easily surround an enemy of lesser troop counts. Decreasing all the stats by 1 is also necessary as even with the tightest formation about 30% of the troops in this unit are still able to easily slip around back after charge collision with a unit of lesser troop count.
Gohma:
80 troops for every 50 humanoid
4 row formation
decrease all attack and defense stats by 2
This is the exact same situation as the Kokiri, Fairies, and Deku. Troops being able to surround enemies is unavoidable with such a high troop count however, even with the tightest 4 row formation. As such their stats take a larger blow than the Kokiri.
Sheikah:
25 troops for every 50 humanoid
2 row formation
2 HP as opposed to 1
Increase attack values by 1
The Sheikah are a bit of a trick to mess with, since they actually use the same human skeletons most other factions use. Because of their smaller number count they are prone to being surrounded even with the widest line formation. To lessen the impact of being surrounded, Sheikah have all been giving 1 additional HP (the same method Darknuts and Large Gorons compensate for being surrounded).
They are shorthand, not the exact names I think.
It's all open to discussion.
Does everyone think blunt weapons should be considerd armor peircing as well? I'm fine with the idea.
I have very generalized ideas, though since some of the factions are getting their rosters changed (the Darknuts in particular are pretty much being redone from the ground up), it's probably safe to wait until they all get redone.
I do not think there will be any tiered units. Each unit will have very different roles. For example Hylian Knights have shields and therefore should be used to chase down archers, where's Hylian Infantry will probably have a parry bonus and can better parry in melee maybe.
Re: Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread
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