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Thread: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

  1. #1
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    Icon1 Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    So as the title says: I need some information on the mentioned factions for our starting date, 1212 / the 13th century in general.
    I need mainly coats of arms, possible troop tree and so on.

    As shown in an earlier preview, I have an early era serbian roster more or less done, and now several 14th century units are also done, I still would need some info about other families of the serbian nobility, apart from the nemanjic.

    Same thing for the Banate of Bosnia. Who were their nobles of the time ? What were their COAs ? I would assume the troop tree for these two factions would be pretty similar. Remember, we are talking about the early 13th century.

    Of course I am thankful for 14th century info as well.

    I have a COA and some info on the nemanjic but would welcome any additional info.

  2. #2
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Bosnia 1212;

    Bosnia was under complete Hungarian control until 1204.

    During the mods start date ban Stephen Kulinić is the ruler, however he is under the overlordship of Hungary as their loyal vassal.
    Bosnia was a vassal of Hungary, similarly as Croatia, all through the 13th and first half of the 14th century.

    As soon as he acquired power, he started persecuting the bogumils and ensured a rule of the Catholic rite, his entire rule is basically him persecuting heretics and ensuring the rule of the Catholic Church.

    His wife was named Anka and he had a son named Sebislav.
    He ruled until 1232 until he was overthrown by a popular uprising on nobles.

    This is Bosnia through the 13th century;

    http://i.imgur.com/ArjtJAy.jpg (the dotted line is the border with Croatia)

    By this time Bosnia was still rather a border hilly buffer zone between Hungary and the Balkans, not exactly relevant, thus, its coats of arms and heraldry are basically unknown.

    These are the proposed symbols before the 14th century;

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...na_zastava.png
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...vina_Bosna.png

    Most of the noble families that we know of came much later and from areas that are not part of Bosnia in 1212.

    The only family that is, is the Kotromanic noble family;

    http://www.wappenwiki.org/images/9/97/Kotromanic.svg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotromani%C4%87_dynasty


    The leader of the bogumil heretics in Bosnia in 1212 is named Lubin.


    Serbia 1212;

    http://i.imgur.com/s35Zwij.png

    Serbia is ruled by Grand Prince Stefan Nemanjić.
    He has a pretty solid wiki page for most faction info references;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_the_First-Crowned


    Apart from the Coat of Arms, which is this; http://www.grbovnik.iz.rs/grbovi/nemanjicv.jpg

  3. #3
    SerbianWOLF's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    I posted map and flag of Serbia in some other post,but I will post it here again
    CoA of Nemanjić dynasty :



    Flag of Serbia(the one you should use for faction icon instead of red eagle on yellow background ) :

    IF you need a map here it is(not sure if it is possible to recreate map as you wish) :

    To find noble families apart Nemanjić in 13th century are very difficult to find and barely you can find something. That is mostly because of Turkish occupation. Some things about medieval Serbia are lost/forgotten. I could not find anything in early 13th century. But here are most known noble famillies in 14th century:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brankovi%C4%87_dynasty
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojino...7_noble_family
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarevi%C4%87_dynasty
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrnjav...i%C4%87_family


    What is the last year of this mod ?





    Last edited by SerbianWOLF; December 25, 2015 at 04:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Alright, thanks to both of you. I read most things I could find on wikipedia, so I was hoping there would perhaps be some serbian or other foreign sources, but apparently these are scarce.
    I already added the COA of noble families from the 14th century that serbianWOLF posted, except for the brankovic, which I will add shortly.

    Regarding the end-date: it is not yet decided. Initially it was supposed to end around 1453, but in order to have a proper 3rd tier with the corresponding armor other items for some factions, we will most likely push it out to somewhere the end of the 15th century.

    Anyways, thanks again and +rep for the effort and support.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    what info do u need?

    well serbs were byzantine styled while the banate used italian armor!



    the only historycal picture of a knight(ban,duke) in bosnia



    if u start in the 1200 the the first ruler is ban borić(borich)

    after him comes kulin,most probably his son and then prijezda kotroman(founder of kotromanich dinasty)

    and yes..the color of the flag could heve been red,we dont know for sure couse we only have reconstructions and some oold writings about a blue flag bu those writings are from an italian who does not need to know the real bosnan flag!

    there is a picture of a king and he has an red kape and lilicums on it


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post
    well serbs were byzantine styled while the banate used italian armor!

    Well, that armor is from modern day Bosnia, but the area it comes from was part of the kingdom of Croatia at the time.



    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post
    the only historycal picture of a knight(ban,duke) in bosnia


    Well, that is not really the case, it is just that our local historians do not put anything online so data is really hard to come by.

    There are other depictions, even older.

    This is a knight depicted on the seal of Stjepan Kotromanic;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    I found other medieval Bosnian stuff as well, but there is basically no info available about anything online

    Here's an unload;
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 























    An effigy, literally nothing about it available except that it is (allegedly) from Bosnia;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  7. #7

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    cool,one guy on an historyan facebook site even toold me that he knows of some 14.century muniment from the poljich republik that lists some nobels and it mentions bosnia as: crotorum rex bosnae(croatian kingdom bosnia) i couldnt find anything,allegedly it is a document posesed by the bilic family and the historyan who wrote about it is Don Slavko Kovacic would u know anything about it.

    great stuf but croatino is the only drawing for now


    who is the guy on the horse?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    I found some COA for Serbs:

    CoA of Crnojević, dynasty from Zeta, first time mentioned in 1326 accompanying King Stefan Dečanski


    Hrebeljanović dynasty, dynasty founded by Pribac Hrebeljanović in 13th century.Famous Serbian Prince Lazar who died in battle of Kosovo in 1389 was from Hrebeljanović dynasty



    Vojinović dynasty,thez played important role in 14th century during Serbian Tsardom and after its fall.


    Balšić dynasty, they were rulers of Zeta in medieval Serbian kingdom and empire from 1360 until 1421.



    Here are some pictures of Serbia in medieval ages painted by Paja Jovanović, you can see some coat of arms, Serbian medieval clothing and some knights.
    The Wedding of Emperor Stefan Dušan
    Sava reconciling his quarreling brothers The coronation of Tsar Dušan Serbian knights

  9. #9

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    that is artificial not authentic

  10. #10
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post
    who is the guy on the horse?
    King Ostoja.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    wery western styled armores and wepons

  12. #12

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post
    wery western styled armores and wepons
    Actually, Serbian medieval army was very westernized, because the armour was bought from Venice, and also made in that style. There are armors and weapons from that era in our millitary museums, and they all look very western.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    and a western crovn,not like that closed eastern byzantine crovn

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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Quote Originally Posted by Djura View Post
    Actually, Serbian medieval army was very westernized, because the armour was bought from Venice, and also made in that style. There are armors and weapons from that era in our military museums, and they all look very western.
    I remember the Wallachian researcher for Tsardoms Total War mod saying that the elite Wallachians imported Italian armour (like most European nobility), while the commoners (according to archaeological findings) showed predominance of mail mixed with Byzantine style armour. Often times museums collect the rare expensive stuff, while the equipment used by the peasants may not be displayed because it's "not pretty enough". Was the armour worn by lower class' also "western" or are was there a mix?

    On the other hand, Serbia is towards the western coast, which would make trade with Venice more convenient than Wallachia.

    ​~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  15. #15
    SerbianWOLF's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    On the other hand, Serbia is towards the western coast, which would make trade with Venice more convenient than Wallachia.

    ~Wille
    Not just Venice, but other Italian states as well as Germany(HRE) and Ragusa.
    No freedom was ever given by any request, nor good speech. Freedom is what you conquer !



  16. #16

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    i know that there are western armors found in serbia but i heard the same that serbia,bulgaria had mixed influences

  17. #17
    SerbianWOLF's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Bulgarian style of army did have some influence on Serbian army in early period and a bit during early Nemanjic era. Later it was mostly western with some byzantine style.
    No freedom was ever given by any request, nor good speech. Freedom is what you conquer !



  18. #18

    Default Re: Research thread on the Grand Principality of Serbia and the Banate of Bosnia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    Often times museums collect the rare expensive stuff, while the equipment used by the peasants may not be displayed because it's "not pretty enough". Was the armour worn by lower class' also "western" or are was there a mix?
    Well, that's probably the case with Serbia. Unfortunately, so much is lost because of the Turks, so even Serbian historians aren't 100% sure how our medieval soldiers looked like. From various sources i have read, they were, in early era, very influenced by Byzantine empire. Later, they adopted more western style, because of trade and influence of Hungary and Venice. And in the end, there was probably a mix, but with more western elements


    @SerbianWOLF Exactly

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