Is criticism of arms sales to Saudi Arabia misguided?

[Enros]

We all know what sort of country Saudi Arabia is. And their army uses almost entirely Western equipment. A lot of people oppose Western nations selling such a backwards country weapons. Right now it is using them to bomb Shia rebels in Yemen, who are victims of discrimination and have a lot of legitimate grievances against the Saudi-backed government there.

The counterargument is that these weapons are not being used to kill bleeding heart liberals who want to improve Arabia's treatment of minorities. They are being used against people who are just as bad or even worse than the Saudi regime. If the Saudis were militarily weak, the country would descend into a civil war like Syria and Libya. Hundreds of thousand would die and many of the factions would have even worse human rights records than the current government.

What do you think of this dilemma?

[snuggans]

i think some people get a bit misguided focusing on the cultural and social idiosyncracies of nations that we trade with and not the geopolitical and financial realities of it all.

although theres plenty of room to criticize Saudi Arabia as with most nations, compared to its nemesis in the region Iran (the one pulling strings in Yemen insurgency along with sending fighters and weapons), for decades Saudi Arabia seems to be acclimatizing itself towards the international community while Iran does the very opposite, even when the rest of the world comes forward to them with a deal and sanctions relief, Khamenei merely replies with murderous tirades while the Iranian president looks on nervously.

it is easy to say that Houthis are victims of discrimination by years of shoddy government, and it is partly true, but they are not just victims. they have their fair share of blood on their hands, amassed through several periods of civil war predating this recent flare-up, they will merely replace the current shoddy government with an even worse one including the imposition of Zaidi Shia sharia law in a country where only around 35% of Muslims follow that brand

the lack of central authority in Yemen caused by the Houthis and Iran is allowing Alqaeda in the arabian peninsula to move about freely, taking over districts and mostly firing on the Hadi coalition and taking Hadi territory.
the Houthis and Iran have also disrupted the drone programs there which were containing AQAP largely towards the eastern desert. Saudi Arabia's air campaign was also refocused towards Yemen and away from Syria and Iraq, which is probably one of Khamenei's goals.

Saudi Arabia might have norms that are ugly to us, they might even be disgustingly undemocratic, but they do cooperate with intelligence agencies, while Iran holds weekly witch hunts for CIA, imagined or real.

economically, Saudi Arabia is cooperating with the US and EU on the directive of crippling the oil export industries of Russia, Iran, Iranian-controlled Iraq, Syria, Venezuela, Kazakhstan, Cuba, Libya. it also puts a dent on daesh's oil business.

Saudi Arabia is fighting against the #1 state sponsor of terrorism, Iran, and i think that we should help them, while also not turning a blind eye towards wahhabism and shady saudi islamic charities

[Col. Tartleton]

We should remember a lot of US equipment is like 30+ years old. Just because we sell them Abrams tanks doesn't mean its cutting edge tech. They went into service in 1980. The F-15 came out in 1976 which is why Iran has a lot of them, the Shah was in power until 1979. Better they buy weapons from the US than from Russia. At least the money comes here instead of going elsewhere. As long as its payed for and not given by the government I don't care.

I mean unless Russia utterly screws up I can't imagine the Armata chassis won't be superior to the Abrams or even Challenger 2. It's 35/17 years newer, a completely new generation of armor.

[Caligula's_Horse]

If the west stops selling them weapons, they'll just start getting them from China or Russia or some such, which will result in them being about as well armed except now there's even less western influence of their policies, and more of somebody else's influence.

During peacetime, this sort of move can make sense when close to nobody else will agree to sell the target weapons either, like with North Korea. Otherwise, the free market takes over, and the exercise gets pretty pointless.

[Abdülmecid I]

Well, I don't think anyone doubts that Saudi Arabia is a fascist state that directly co-operates with salafists in North Western Syria or with Al Qaeda in Yemen, but that doesn't necessarily mean equipping them is misguided. After all, along history, the aim of every state's foreign policy was supposed to promote its interests, not some sort of a crusade intending to strengthen democracy or eliminate injustice. Since the 1930's Saudi Arabia was one of the most loyal allies of the US, while also considering Iran, whose interests collide with those of the US since the Revolution of 1979, as an enemy, so I believe that arming them is reasonable and expected, as long as we aware that history and geopolitical affairs are not based on ideals and propaganda claims.

[Col. Tartleton]

As a country the US should be willing to do business with anyone who isn't our enemy. As individuals we should criticize the Saudi Regime.

We don't need them to change, it doesn't actually effect us negatively, we'd just like them to because it would be nicer if they weren't awful.

I'd trade Arabia for Iran in a heartbeat if we could manipulate them as well.

[Harith]

As a country the US should be willing to do business with anyone who isn't our enemy. As individuals we should criticize the Saudi Regime.

Isn't that a double-standard though? Shake hands, pat on the back and put a big smile when the green is flashed and then tell them off about their human rights?

[Prodromos]

It mainly stems from the difference in how Westerners versus other cultures think. We are very short-term thinkers. We think that if a country isn't attacking us today, it's okay to help and arm them as much as possible. In reality, within a few decades to a few centuries, if these Muslim countries ever manage to become powerful enough to stand on their own, they will dump America and return to trying to kill as many good people as possible, and all the arms and experience and economic and other strengths we are giving them will be used against us. Even a pistol can do a lot of damage. Imagine thousands of tanks and missiles.

[Cyclops]

... They are being used against people who are just as bad or even worse than the Saudi regime....

You're saying the Shi'a are worse than the Wahhabis? That's news to me.

The Saudis are the worst regime in the world, they have complicated Iraq, made the whole Arab Spring worse, and funded strikes from the WTC to Bombay. If it wasn't for the oil they US would've stoped protecting them decades ago. They'd be another Somalia, somewhere you fired a few rockets from time to time to let the brigands heads' down.

[Heathen Hammer]

It is safe to say that Iran is a lesser evil compared to the Saudis. The only reason some would claim otherwise is to justify American foreign policy in the region, which chooses to cooperate with one of the most vile regimes in the world, against predominantly secular countries.

[Harith]

In reality, within a few decades to a few centuries, if these Muslim countries ever manage to become powerful enough to stand on their own, they will dump America and return to trying to kill as many good people as possible, and all the arms and experience and economic and other strengths we are giving them will be used against us. Even a pistol can do a lot of damage. Imagine thousands of tanks and missiles.

How about no?

Any arms deal between the West and non West countries (Israel excepted) usually involves selling scraps. When the US signs X billion of dollars arms deal with Saudi they are:

1. Selling surplus old weaponry (15+ years old)
2. Getting rid of older models (15+ years old)

In fact, if you take a look at the arms deals, you will see that it is void of any technological advantages. As for economic advantages, there are none. ME economies are centered on Oil, and you can clearly see the consequences today. None of them have any viable industries apart from Israel, Turkey and maybe Iran. The rest are all, directly or indirectly, dependent on oil.

The West's administrations may make miscalculations in foreign policy designs, but they are not stupid.

[Ludicus]

Saudi Arabia is fighting against the #1 state sponsor of terrorism, Iran,

Enjoy,
H. Clinton's leaked memo, Cable: 09STATE131801_a - WikiLeaks

Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide.

---------------------

I'd trade Arabia for Iran in a heartbeat if we could manipulate them as well.

You say Machiavelli, I say Montaigne.

[Condottiere 40K]

If the Iranians got rid of the hardline ayatollahs and the Revolutionary Guard, and demographics seemed favourably inclined for this outcome, they'd settle down, and certainly look more attractive than Saudi Arabia, whose demographics seemed inclined to boil over, were the lid not pressed down very hard by the royal family.

At this moment, supplying the Saudis with arms is the least of all possible evils.

[Harith]

At this moment, supplying the Saudis with arms is the least of all possible evils.

You couldn't have possibly been more wrong. Saudi under king Abdul Aziz was a reliable ally. Today it's ruled by Crown Nayef and other young princes who are all different but similar in their arrogance.

That's not to say this is, after all, profiting from the blood of young Arabs. However I doubt that this is an issue in Realpolitiks.... that is until they come knocking on the West's doors.

[Prodromos]

How about no?

Any arms deal between the West and non West countries (Israel excepted) usually involves selling scraps. When the US signs X billion of dollars arms deal with Saudi they are:

1. Selling surplus old weaponry (15+ years old)
2. Getting rid of older models (15+ years old)

In fact, if you take a look at the arms deals, you will see that it is void of any technological advantages. As for economic advantages, there are none. ME economies are centered on Oil, and you can clearly see the consequences today. None of them have any viable industries apart from Israel, Turkey and maybe Iran. The rest are all, directly or indirectly, dependent on oil.

The West's administrations may make miscalculations in foreign policy designs, but they are not stupid.

I wish that was the case, but our leaders are either stupid or with the enemy. Just look at all those Patriot defense systems we are selling to the Arabs. Not to mention all the training and hi-tech equipment given to their military and police.

As for economic strength Arabs have used the oil, the tourism, the Western multinationals, to rake in billions and trillions of dollars, And much of it is used to prop up oversized security forces that exist only to impose Sharia and/or crush political dissent. They also use the money to destroy Western countries from within via Islamist organizations.

[dogukan]

i think some people get a bit misguided focusing on the cultural and social idiosyncracies of nations that we trade with and not the geopolitical and financial realities of it all.

although theres plenty of room to criticize Saudi Arabia as with most nations, compared to its nemesis in the region Iran (the one pulling strings in Yemen insurgency along with sending fighters and weapons), for decades Saudi Arabia seems to be acclimatizing itself towards the international community while Iran does the very opposite, even when the rest of the world comes forward to them with a deal and sanctions relief, Khamenei merely replies with murderous tirades while the Iranian president looks on nervously.

it is easy to say that Houthis are victims of discrimination by years of shoddy government, and it is partly true, but they are not just victims. they have their fair share of blood on their hands, amassed through several periods of civil war predating this recent flare-up, they will merely replace the current shoddy government with an even worse one including the imposition of Zaidi Shia sharia law in a country where only around 35% of Muslims follow that brand

the lack of central authority in Yemen caused by the Houthis and Iran is allowing Alqaeda in the arabian peninsula to move about freely, taking over districts and mostly firing on the Hadi coalition and taking Hadi territory.
the Houthis and Iran have also disrupted the drone programs there which were containing AQAP largely towards the eastern desert. Saudi Arabia's air campaign was also refocused towards Yemen and away from Syria and Iraq, which is probably one of Khamenei's goals.

Saudi Arabia might have norms that are ugly to us, they might even be disgustingly undemocratic, but they do cooperate with intelligence agencies, while Iran holds weekly witch hunts for CIA, imagined or real.

economically, Saudi Arabia is cooperating with the US and EU on the directive of crippling the oil export industries of Russia, Iran, Iranian-controlled Iraq, Syria, Venezuela, Kazakhstan, Cuba, Libya. it also puts a dent on daesh's oil business.

Saudi Arabia is fighting against the #1 state sponsor of terrorism, Iran, and i think that we should help them, while also not turning a blind eye towards wahhabism and shady saudi islamic charities

This is one of the most biased and problematic views I have seen regarding this issue...and the western-centrism in it is heart-breaking.

So Saudis cooperate with the "west" and so it is okay to work with them and empower their regime while their capital is ruining the middle east? ANd what about the people who are suffering from Saudi's actions?
Iran is bad, because they do not "bow down" to the international order, Saudis are okay because they are "working for us"...and who are you? Are you a state? Do you represent the interests of a nation-state?

This is a mere continuation comprador elites in the rest of the world working for the western consumer society while robbing peoples of the non-western world.
Nobody has to respect a regime that is oppressive and corrupt at the extremities. Not the peoples at least.
Certainly the capital owners who enjoy the millions unprotected labor that are being oppressed in these Sheikdoms as long as they get their financial relations and oil....
The destruction these relations cause is NOTHING next to any form of terrorism. Its just not that visible and graphic.

If you think this way, honestly, you have no right to complain about the terrorism the oppressed pick as a way of presenting their protest.

[Harith]

I wish that was the case, but our leaders are either stupid or with the enemy. Just look at all those Patriot defense systems we are selling to the Arabs. Not to mention all the training and hi-tech equipment given to their military and police.

First of all, I don''t know of any ME nation that has the patriot system apart from Turkey or Israel. Feel free to correct me on that. As for the "all the training and hi-tech equipment" it is high-tech for the region, given that most ME nations (Israel and Turkey excepted) are dependent on 70s and 80s technologies. Even the latest arms deals are more suited to "counter-terrorism" and insurgency management. It is mostly armored transporters, rifles and logistical training. As for the heavy armament or air force, it's 15+ years old by US standards and are either excess stock or old hardware.

As for economic strength Arabs have used the oil, the tourism, the Western multinationals, to rake in billions and trillions of dollars, And much of it is used to prop up oversized security forces that exist only to impose Sharia and/or crush political dissent.

What economic advantages? Saudi is going to be broke in 5 years, according to FT, if they continue their current deficits. Arab economies are in ruin and are dependent on oil. The Gulf nations, the richest, are 100%-70% dependent on oil. As for the multinationals, they are the GENIUS idea to getting back what you spent on their oil. They build them expensive infrastructure and unsustainable leisure facilities at an over-priced contract. All of the money is then transferred to the company's headquarters, which is most likely to be in the US. Their skilled workforce is overwhelmingly western, so all of the skills, tacit knowledge and technologies do not transfer and they remain dependent on them. They also get nice big fat tax free cheques. Its a win-win.

They also use the money to destroy Western countries from within via Islamist organizations.

???
If you think ISIS is really able to destroy the West, then I think you need a reality check. The best they can do, as tragic as it maybe, is to kill few innocent civilians.

I think you need a vacation, because you seem to be paranoid when there is no need to do so (at least from ME/ Muslims nations). They are weak and they will remain weak for a very long time.

[Condottiere 40K]

The Middle East is in a transitional phase; climate change will likely wipe out agricultural output there, and you're going to have a lot of hungry, angry people.

The Saudi Royal family is trapped by their promotion of an intolerant ideology, but for the next decade, they should be able to keep the lid on their peninsula to maintain their control of the regime they created, and they're willing to pay for the tools to do so.

[Heathen Hammer]

Except that they are clearly not capable to do so, given how we've seen Yemen militias destroy Saudi troops despite these "tools". There is no long term potential for Saudi regime. Either the current regime is overthrown, or the state literally collapses and is overrun by pissed of Shias and just angry population. Saudi Arabia is a huge liability, while Iran is stable and will probably replace Saudi influence in the region.

[Condottiere 40K]

Still not a reason not to sell them arms.